Why the Toothbrush? A riotous journey into oral hygiene

WEBVTT

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Hello, welcome to Why The Fork. I’m Ben Diamond,

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an inventor of consumer products, and thank you

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for listening to our quirky little podcast about

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humble everyday products. Today, we’re looking

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at the toothbrush and asking, why didn’t our

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ancestors have bad teeth? Why do I need to pay

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£200 for a toothbrush? And why is there toothpaste

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all over my sink? Because in this podcast…

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We look at the everyday objects in your home

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and ask why they look, feel and work the way

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they do. We’ll be talking to designers and engineers,

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quizzing them for the gossip on the next generation

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of products. And of course, there’ll be a little

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geopolitics, social change and possibly Napoleon.

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That’s led us to the very clever designs we have

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today. This is a podcast by D2M Product Design,

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and I’ll be talking with Phil Staunton. our design

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expert, and seeing him smile a little bit later.

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Nothing has had a bigger impact on oral care

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than the toothbrush. This unassuming little object

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that’s been around for centuries has kept cavities

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at bay and those pearly whites bright. As a designer,

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it’s a wonderful little object to play with.

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It’s a really complex challenge. You’ve got the

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very hard enamel teeth with the undulating surface

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and small gaps. And they’re right next to this

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really soft gum line that you also want to clean.

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You want to remove both the soft, stuck -on plaque

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and sugars and the hard bits of food. But push

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too hard on the gums or the teeth and risk damaging

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the soft tissue that holds them all in place.

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And too soft and you won’t remove the bacteria,

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sugar and cornflakes. And mouths are different

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sizes, teeth are different sensitivity, and they’re

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hard to get to, especially at the back. It’s

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moist, wet, dark, and you’re probably in a bit

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of a rush. It’s why there are tons of patents,

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designs and awards for the humble brush every

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year. The volume of innovation on this 20cm stick

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is outstanding, but it wasn’t always the case.

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You won’t believe it, but historically, our ancestors

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had good teeth. Their natural diets and high

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fibre meant that there was very little tooth

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decay. But I can’t comment on their breath. Over

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5 ,500 years ago, the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians

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used a stick to clean, and so did the Chinese

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as early as the Tang Dynasty, that’s 2 ,500 years

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ago. Indigenous Australians, New Zealanders and

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Americans all had similar behaviour, which spread

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well into the Middle East, later establishing

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itself as part of the Muslim rituals. Plus, of

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course, the Romans and the Greeks, and through

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the Middle Ages in Europe. Pretty much everywhere.

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Now, please don’t grab any old stick. Typically,

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these are fibrous young twigs. Aric, which also

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contains natural fluoride in the East, or in

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Britain in the Middle Ages, willow, which was

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very common. and green twigs were left over from

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building dauben water walls so you always look

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good for the builders you chew the end of the

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stick removing the woody outer and leaving the

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bristle -like fibers inside this you work around

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your mouth in a similar way today cleaning your

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teeth now you can add salt which acts as an abrasive

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and add flavor like cumin or urine which does

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not add flavor but acts as a cleaning agent or

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cloves, which also helped to numb any discomfort.

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And the Romans also added crushed bones like

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alums, seashells, eggshells, baking soda, to

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help whiten teeth. All these abrasive ingredients

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were used until very recently as a part of early

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tooth powder, which were like dishes of powdered

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toothpaste. Of course, this was not perfect,

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and all these cultures had rudimentary dentistry,

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even some filling, but mainly extraction. This

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cleanliness was particularly important because

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from the Greeks to the Middle Ages, bad breath

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and smell was associated with spreading diseases

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like leprosy. But the sticks wear out and you’ve

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got to work hard to get the outer coating off,

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spitting it out as you go. So somewhere around

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1400, we start to see the brushes as we know

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it. They were used to scrub homes, they were

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everywhere. So the jump from using them on the

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floor or table to teeth is not a surprise. They

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were a similar size to our own. a wooden handle

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sometimes bamboo with hogs or pigs hair being

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used as bristles now this is nice and soft because

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we want to be able to clean the mouth gently

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rather than more abrasive tufts used on the floor

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but we want them to be stiff so badger hair used

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in shaving wouldn’t be strong enough but these

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hairs are hollow and trap bacteria by sixteen

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forties france had Little brushes for making

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clean of the teeth, mostly covered with silver

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and some with a few gold and silver twists. And

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around the same time, Darius Samuel Pepys, then

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a student at Cambridge University, bought a bundle

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of toothbrushes, second hand. A bargain, students.

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It wasn’t the only method of cleaning. Nicholas

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Lemery, an apothecary to King Louis XIV of France,

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recommended… rubbing one’s teeth with powder

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and a rough brush and then rinsing them with

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claret. The Tudors prefer to use small finger

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cloths. Whereas the Complete Housewife book in

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1710 also advised… The too frequent use of

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the toothbrush makes the teeth become long and

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deformed, although it be a good instrument and

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the moderate use of it proper enough. Our ancestors

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had good teeth. So why the impression we all

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had bad teeth? You see, something had changed.

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There was a new enemy on the horizon. No, not

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Napoleon. Sugar. Introduced to Europe around

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1096. Within 300 years it was being mass produced

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in Lebanon, Brazil and Haiti. Everyone loved

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it. The Tudors consumed so much they had black

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teeth, or lost all of them. Elizabethans even

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blackening their teeth just to make it look like

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they were rich sugar eaters. and this is a juxtaposition

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we know from the brushes and twigs that oral

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hygiene was well practised and we know that sugar

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couldn’t have been in everyone’s diets so why

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do you think that all our ancestors had bad teeth

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and didn’t brush for this we need to blame the

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victorians exhuming and digging up the rich people

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and the rich in their better preserved graves

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had sugar and therefore bad teeth the victorians

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were digging up the posh graves or the very religious

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who like thomas becket practice that you shouldn’t

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wash nice so these victorians were finding the

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sugar eaters with no brushing and bad teeth and

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made the assumption that it was all of us who

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didn’t brush but when you look at the paupers

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graves which had decomposed more they still had

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really good teeth Well, OK, it looks like if

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you can afford sugar, you have bad teeth. And

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although brushing will help, you will need to

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be brushing twice a day with toothpaste, which

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at the time was bones, cork, urine and clothes,

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so pretty ineffective for sugar. As sugar intake

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increased and hit the emerging middle classes

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as well, the brush and salt powder wasn’t enough.

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More and more black and removed teeth. There

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was a huge demand for the replacement teeth and

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battles, graves and the paw were a great source

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of dentures to add to your in -mouth collection.

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So now, it’s Napoleon. He seems to be appearing

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in all of our Why the Fox stories. Yes, he brushed

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his teeth. No, we don’t know if Josephine had

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black teeth. But we do know that the Battle of

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Waterloo and the Napoleonic Wars in general was

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an excellent supply of spare teeth. By 1900s,

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you might have had all your real teeth taken

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out for your 21st birthday and replaced with

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Nick’s teeth, so no need to brush. I think that

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as sugar increased and the availability of replacement

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teeth increased, the stick and the brush dropped

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out of favour. People did do some cleaning, but

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by the 1900s it became less effective and knocking

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them out for your 21st, just the easier option.

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While all this was happening, the toothbrush

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was still developing. President Thomas Jefferson,

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around 1760s in the American colonies, asked

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a colleague in London to purchase half a dozen

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toothbrushes, the hair neither too strong nor

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too weak, and a silver toothpick case. The smallest

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possible, such as you may have seen me use, they

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cost about a dollar. So why this effort to get

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this Goldilocks brush? Like today, brushes were

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different sizes, and depending on the hog that

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supplied the hair, the bristles could either

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be stiffer or softer. And so for those who wanted

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to brush and not have replacement teeth, they

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needed something more standard. Step in, William

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Addis of Clerkenwell, London. Whilst spending

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some time at His Majesty’s Pleasure in Newgate

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Prison in 1790 for starting a riot, he had, well,

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bad breath. And inspired by a broom in the corner,

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took a bone from his dinner and crafted a brush

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and became known for the first toothbrush. Now,

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it’s not really a new invention. So why is he

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credited with being the inventor? Well, he saw

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the commercial opportunity. setting up a business

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to make them using leftover materials bones and

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horsehair from his trade as a rag merchant he

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built then mass produced brushes it’s a true

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rags to riches story as a stationer he could

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sell the new standard brushes to the well -to

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-do at bookshops which were like early coffee

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-houses and a great place to sell innovation

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His Addis business grew, and with his sons, expanded

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into shaving, ladies and cleaning brushes, and

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subcontracted for other brands, and it’s still

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running today as Wisden Toothbrushes, 235 years

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later. By standardising the brush, which you

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heard from President Jefferson was tricky to

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buy, by this relatively complex process. Oxbone,

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boiled and cut to length. for gents, ladies and

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children, and fashioned in a curved profile,

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hand -drilled with bristles from Siberia to make

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them soften and bleached by sunlight, and with

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a craft industry, that’s people in their houses

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at home, wiring in the tufts with silver wire

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and trimmed, packed in beautiful card boxes.

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It’s actually similar to how we make them today

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with the bristles of nylon tufted by robots.

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The brushes are significantly more standard than

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the ones that Thomas Jefferson and Samuel Pepys

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were using. And so by 1926, they were making

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almost 2 million of them. Like many of our stories,

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it was not the first to invent the brush, but

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the innovation of the design, the pack and the

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channel. and brand that makes the product so

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cool. These designs spread with mass production

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and the first patents in the US around 1857,

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70 years later. And in 1927, his son, Robert

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Addis II, made the first plastic brush. It was

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made from celluloid nitrate, as in movie picture

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film, which is incredibly flammable. In the 1920s,

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not everyone might have had brushes. It wasn’t

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affordable. And there were increasing health

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problems driven by sugar, smoking, and frankly,

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just the lack of brushing. But the celluloid

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plastics were significantly cheaper to make.

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Meanwhile, the DuPont company was busy inventing

00:12:44.450 –> 00:12:47.110
nylon. Check out its impact on why the backpack.

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Nylon’s long -chain molecules are stiff, but

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not too stiff like President Jefferson’s shopping

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list. And unlike the hog’s hair, it isn’t hollow,

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it doesn’t hold bacteria, so it can also be sterilised.

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And hog’s hair was getting hard to get hold of

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due to famine in Russia. In 1938, J .T. Woodside

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and his WeCo company, having pioneered sterilised

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toothbrushes based on Addis’ work, partnered

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with DuPont for an exclusive two -year use. of

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the nylon bristle. Named after the chair of the

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International Dental Association, Dr. West’s

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miracle tuft was launched. This simple plastic

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brush with a tidy and sterile glass case promised

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to end animal bristle trouble forever and was

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a bargain at 50 cents, about $11 today. We’re

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still using DuPont nylon bristles now. Here,

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Addis’s and DuPont’s new materials, plus the

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automation, means that toothbrushes are more

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accessible. Mass manufacturer Sunny allows everyone

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to have the toothbrush, even tramps, they said.

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And at last, we can reintroduce oral health.

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So in the Second World War, the US Army trained

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troops in brushing, and certainly in the US,

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this then helped educate and reintroduce oral

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care habits to the US. after the wars if you

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brush your teeth you’ll always find you’ll have

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all your teeth to chew and grind you gotta brush

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your choppers all around not side to side but

00:14:27.120 –> 00:15:09.299
up and down Then there’s the electric brush.

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First in 1937, but really around 1960, the first

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electric toothbrushes to hit the American market

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was the Broxodent from Scrip. These have rotating

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or oscillating heads, which are shown to clean

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your mouth better than manual brushes. Well,

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to be fair, if you use your manual brush correctly

00:15:31.470 –> 00:15:33.950
every time, you’ll get the same sort of cleaning.

00:15:34.490 –> 00:15:38.269
But we’re not that good at doing it right every

00:15:38.269 –> 00:15:41.259
time. Which means in real life, the electric

00:15:41.259 –> 00:15:42.960
brush will always give you better performance.

00:15:43.539 –> 00:15:45.840
People are just not very good at doing the same

00:15:45.840 –> 00:15:50.379
thing accurately every day, twice a day. They

00:15:50.379 –> 00:15:53.240
have timers, which encourages you to always brush

00:15:53.240 –> 00:15:56.539
for at least two minutes. This gives the fluoride

00:15:56.539 –> 00:15:58.820
in your toothpaste time to bond with your teeth.

00:15:59.360 –> 00:16:02.700
It’s really where design helps behaviour change.

00:16:05.019 –> 00:16:07.600
We started with the complexity of the mouth.

00:16:08.000 –> 00:16:10.539
And this is where designers really get to play.

00:16:10.720 –> 00:16:14.299
We spend hours crafting the perfect handle, shaped

00:16:14.299 –> 00:16:17.360
for comfort for different ages. Stubby for kids

00:16:17.360 –> 00:16:20.139
to learn the habit to prevent overpressure, or

00:16:20.139 –> 00:16:22.659
dexterous and beautiful ones for older people.

00:16:23.320 –> 00:16:26.299
Then the bristles, cross -action, different lengths

00:16:26.299 –> 00:16:29.000
to get into the interdental spaces, like between

00:16:29.000 –> 00:16:31.720
the teeth. Mixing hardness and softness to get

00:16:31.720 –> 00:16:34.419
the best results without damaging the guns. And

00:16:34.419 –> 00:16:37.799
tongue cleaning. and at all time making them

00:16:37.799 –> 00:16:42.340
look like works of art to differentiate them

00:16:42.340 –> 00:16:48.460
from competitors. As designers, we love working

00:16:48.460 –> 00:16:51.019
on toothbrushes, like pens and cutlery get in

00:16:51.019 –> 00:16:53.879
the perfect form that both encompasses the ergonomics

00:16:53.879 –> 00:16:56.679
and the mechanics of the in -mouth cleaning whilst

00:16:56.679 –> 00:16:59.639
looking premium and beautiful and extruding the

00:16:59.639 –> 00:17:05.019
brand beauty. It’s no wonder that Red Dot and

00:17:05.019 –> 00:17:08.740
Earful Wards often feature brushes. Lunar Design’s

00:17:08.740 –> 00:17:11.799
Oral -B cross -section was one of the first groundbreaking

00:17:11.799 –> 00:17:15.299
brushes that included both soft TPU co -moulded

00:17:15.299 –> 00:17:18.599
rubber onto polypropylene handles with beautiful

00:17:18.599 –> 00:17:21.980
cross -section bristles and curved forms. It’s

00:17:21.980 –> 00:17:25.140
kind of the hero product that us designers love

00:17:25.140 –> 00:17:28.519
to work on. Or step change designs such as the

00:17:28.519 –> 00:17:31.339
angled head of the reach brush that allowed you

00:17:31.339 –> 00:17:33.599
to reach the hard to reach places at the back

00:17:33.599 –> 00:17:36.880
of your mouth. Today we’re still using the humble

00:17:36.880 –> 00:17:44.500
toothbrush with that angled neck. Stay with us

00:17:44.500 –> 00:17:47.440
on Wire the Fork as we explore the future of

00:17:47.440 –> 00:17:50.400
the toothbrush and wonder why we’ve never seen

00:17:50.400 –> 00:17:53.819
Captain James T. Kirk boldly brush his teeth

00:17:53.819 –> 00:17:57.710
in the future. Normally I end this section of

00:17:57.710 –> 00:18:00.509
Why The Fork with a bright future, but for the

00:18:00.509 –> 00:18:02.849
toothbrush this time it’s more of a challenge.

00:18:03.109 –> 00:18:05.970
All of our work from ancient willow sticks through

00:18:05.970 –> 00:18:09.089
horsehair, grave robbing and nylon has made the

00:18:09.089 –> 00:18:12.990
experience better and more effective. But I believe

00:18:12.990 –> 00:18:16.690
this is one product I’d love to design out. I

00:18:16.690 –> 00:18:20.349
mean, who has two minutes in the morning? Now

00:18:20.349 –> 00:18:25.670
go and brush your teeth. Let’s talk more about

00:18:25.670 –> 00:18:27.650
the wonder of the toothbrush with our design

00:18:27.650 –> 00:18:30.230
expert Phil Staunton from D2M. Hello Phil. Hi

00:18:30.230 –> 00:18:33.950
Ben, how you doing? Fabulous. So my first question

00:18:33.950 –> 00:18:37.579
to you Phil is can you floss? I can floss. But

00:18:37.579 –> 00:18:40.740
I hate it. And my dentist said to me, actually,

00:18:40.920 –> 00:18:43.740
that it’s more important to clean between the

00:18:43.740 –> 00:18:45.500
teeth than it is to actually clean the surface

00:18:45.500 –> 00:18:48.660
of the teeth. And he recommended this water jet

00:18:48.660 –> 00:18:51.940
flosser thing. So I had one of those for a while

00:18:51.940 –> 00:18:54.819
and then I dropped it and it broke. And I really

00:18:54.819 –> 00:18:58.539
need to do more in terms of brushing between

00:18:58.539 –> 00:19:01.400
my teeth. Why is flossing such a pain? What’s

00:19:01.400 –> 00:19:04.160
it about flossing that is really difficult, I

00:19:04.160 –> 00:19:06.759
guess? It’s just the angles and it’s just all…

00:19:06.759 –> 00:19:08.660
awkward and you’ve got your hands near your mouth

00:19:08.660 –> 00:19:10.480
and all that kind of stuff and then i always

00:19:10.480 –> 00:19:12.720
feel it’s really wasteful like oh yeah i try

00:19:12.720 –> 00:19:14.480
and get away with a smaller bit of floss and

00:19:14.480 –> 00:19:16.039
then go actually that’s really hard then end

00:19:16.039 –> 00:19:18.640
up with a massive bit and it’s all great so yeah

00:19:18.640 –> 00:19:20.579
i think it’s just a pain it’s quite it’s quite

00:19:20.579 –> 00:19:22.900
invasive as well like you know because your fingers

00:19:22.900 –> 00:19:24.839
are very close to your mouth with the toothbrushes

00:19:24.839 –> 00:19:27.960
it’s much further away it’s more delicate what’s

00:19:27.960 –> 00:19:30.460
fussing it’s like I mean, it’s particularly the

00:19:30.460 –> 00:19:32.759
back teeth. I can’t do my back teeth. My hands

00:19:32.759 –> 00:19:34.039
are too big. My mouth is too big, something like

00:19:34.039 –> 00:19:36.700
that. So it’s quite a difficult design problem,

00:19:36.819 –> 00:19:38.559
isn’t it? It is a difficult design problem. And

00:19:38.559 –> 00:19:40.559
I tend to actually just use interdental brushes

00:19:40.559 –> 00:19:42.420
now. But again, you know, slightly concerned

00:19:42.420 –> 00:19:44.180
about the sustainability issue and the fact you’re

00:19:44.180 –> 00:19:46.420
throwing quite a lot of plastic away at the end

00:19:46.420 –> 00:19:48.640
of the day. But I guess that is one of the big

00:19:48.640 –> 00:19:51.339
problems with kind of oral care design, isn’t

00:19:51.339 –> 00:19:53.380
it? That a lot of the products you do end up

00:19:53.380 –> 00:19:55.539
throwing away quite frequently and then having

00:19:55.539 –> 00:19:57.880
to get new ones. So there’s always that waste

00:19:57.880 –> 00:20:00.690
issue. I think you’re right. What do you think

00:20:00.690 –> 00:20:02.849
we can learn from Addison’s story or Thomas Jefferson’s

00:20:02.849 –> 00:20:04.829
experience about choosing toothbrushes? What

00:20:04.829 –> 00:20:07.480
can we learn as designers now from… from that

00:20:07.480 –> 00:20:09.619
experience in the past yeah I’ll take Addis I

00:20:09.619 –> 00:20:11.980
think because I think there’s loads we can learn

00:20:11.980 –> 00:20:14.599
from him it’s fantastic his story and I think

00:20:14.599 –> 00:20:16.539
you told it kind of really well and thanks for

00:20:16.539 –> 00:20:19.240
kind of sharing that I love the idea of him sat

00:20:19.240 –> 00:20:21.839
in prison you know whittling away with a piece

00:20:21.839 –> 00:20:24.819
of bone sticking some bristles from a broom in

00:20:24.819 –> 00:20:27.019
the corner through to kind of you know brush

00:20:27.019 –> 00:20:29.519
his teeth I think the big thing is you know he’s

00:20:29.519 –> 00:20:31.839
he’s kind of often cited as the inventor of the

00:20:31.839 –> 00:20:33.940
toothbrush but actually it was invented you know

00:20:33.940 –> 00:20:37.420
a thousand years before in China But what he

00:20:37.420 –> 00:20:40.119
did invent really was the toothbrush business.

00:20:40.660 –> 00:20:43.599
And he really worked out how to get it to market

00:20:43.599 –> 00:20:46.180
as well through his kind of stationers business.

00:20:46.500 –> 00:20:49.240
And then also the fact he used kind of cottage

00:20:49.240 –> 00:20:52.099
industry and people in their homes, you know,

00:20:52.099 –> 00:20:55.000
kind of like winding wire around to kind of hold

00:20:55.000 –> 00:20:56.579
the bristles in and all that kind of stuff. I

00:20:56.579 –> 00:20:59.420
think it’s just a fantastic story. But the big

00:20:59.420 –> 00:21:01.319
thing to learn, I think, is timing. He got his

00:21:01.319 –> 00:21:04.519
timing absolutely right. You know, it was just

00:21:04.519 –> 00:21:07.319
as sure. Cougar was a real problem and was actually

00:21:07.319 –> 00:21:09.660
now affordable by a lot more people. So a lot

00:21:09.660 –> 00:21:11.200
more people were having kind of issues in terms

00:21:11.200 –> 00:21:14.640
of their teeth. So he really kind of nailed it

00:21:14.640 –> 00:21:17.160
on that front, as well as, as I say, the other

00:21:17.160 –> 00:21:20.220
critical elements of a business. And that cottage

00:21:20.220 –> 00:21:22.460
industry element really allowed him to scale

00:21:22.460 –> 00:21:24.779
it really quickly. And actually, considering

00:21:24.779 –> 00:21:27.799
we’re talking hundreds of years ago, he managed

00:21:27.799 –> 00:21:30.299
to be selling millions of toothbrushes really

00:21:30.299 –> 00:21:33.000
quite fast. I think he had an incredible kind

00:21:33.000 –> 00:21:35.539
of business acumen. of time while sat in jail

00:21:35.539 –> 00:21:38.440
to work all this out i guess that’s definitely

00:21:38.440 –> 00:21:40.539
true i know i know all my best inventions happen

00:21:40.539 –> 00:21:42.839
not when i’m in the office or in the lab they

00:21:42.839 –> 00:21:44.500
happen when i’m on my bike or in the shower when

00:21:44.500 –> 00:21:47.019
your brain your brain is contemplating and thinking

00:21:47.019 –> 00:21:49.740
making those connections and i think As designers,

00:21:49.799 –> 00:21:52.799
you need to have that pontification to do it

00:21:52.799 –> 00:21:55.759
as well. So, yeah. So, guys, I do not recommend

00:21:55.759 –> 00:21:57.900
going to jail and inventing, but definitely spend

00:21:57.900 –> 00:21:59.579
your time looking at things in the corner. Yeah,

00:21:59.619 –> 00:22:02.039
I do often wonder, though, if I started a riot

00:22:02.039 –> 00:22:03.960
and ended up in jail, what might I have invented

00:22:03.960 –> 00:22:10.599
by now? All the best inventions start with riots.

00:22:10.640 –> 00:22:13.440
That’s a good sign, I think. How would you design

00:22:13.440 –> 00:22:15.579
for an orchestra? We’ve mentioned the math’s

00:22:15.579 –> 00:22:17.700
quite difficult, but, you know, how do you test

00:22:17.700 –> 00:22:20.130
a two – brush how do you do you have rows of

00:22:20.130 –> 00:22:22.150
volunteers like what’s the process that you go

00:22:22.150 –> 00:22:23.869
through to kind of come up with something new

00:22:23.869 –> 00:22:25.869
for in the matter yeah it’s a really good question

00:22:25.869 –> 00:22:28.569
so i think in terms of the way we would approach

00:22:28.569 –> 00:22:31.349
it as d2m product design is we’d start quite

00:22:31.349 –> 00:22:33.170
small so it would be we’re going to build some

00:22:33.170 –> 00:22:35.069
3d models we’re going to test in terms of the

00:22:35.069 –> 00:22:37.210
ergonomics particularly around kind of hand shape

00:22:37.210 –> 00:22:38.910
and being able to hold it and maneuver the brush

00:22:38.910 –> 00:22:41.089
and things because that’s quite easy you can

00:22:41.089 –> 00:22:43.069
print it in standard materials and kind of get

00:22:43.069 –> 00:22:44.910
on and test that relatively easily and hands

00:22:44.910 –> 00:22:47.930
don’t vary that much when we get into the mouth

00:22:47.930 –> 00:22:50.410
bit which is the hard bit then again we would

00:22:50.410 –> 00:22:52.589
start by testing out on our team and because

00:22:52.589 –> 00:22:54.490
we’ve got you know a nice team that’s quite varied

00:22:54.490 –> 00:22:56.490
so to speak in terms of different ages and different

00:22:56.490 –> 00:22:59.309
sexes and stuff you know we get so far with that

00:22:59.309 –> 00:23:01.869
and that’s quite cost effective obviously but

00:23:01.869 –> 00:23:04.910
beyond that then you’re into user groups you

00:23:04.910 –> 00:23:07.809
know and and testing on a wider variety of people

00:23:07.809 –> 00:23:10.769
including you know thinking about kind of different

00:23:10.769 –> 00:23:12.470
ethnic backgrounds that might have different

00:23:12.470 –> 00:23:14.309
mouth shapes and all that kind of other stuff

00:23:14.309 –> 00:23:16.470
and actually if you do it really properly you’re

00:23:16.470 –> 00:23:19.039
going to spend way more on market research, testing

00:23:19.039 –> 00:23:21.099
and focus groups than you are on product development

00:23:21.099 –> 00:23:24.839
or probably even tooling. Because that is absolutely

00:23:24.839 –> 00:23:27.079
critical, really, if you’re going to do a really

00:23:27.079 –> 00:23:28.839
good job and make it really work for a lot of

00:23:28.839 –> 00:23:30.619
different people. I bet, listeners, if you run

00:23:30.619 –> 00:23:33.319
your tongue around your mouth now, I bet even

00:23:33.319 –> 00:23:34.640
though you’ve brushed your teeth really well

00:23:34.640 –> 00:23:36.960
this morning, you’ll feel some bits that aren’t

00:23:36.960 –> 00:23:39.559
quite so good. Why is it so difficult to get

00:23:39.559 –> 00:23:42.619
that consistent cleaning? for yourself let alone

00:23:42.619 –> 00:23:44.180
you know when you’re testing and designing a

00:23:44.180 –> 00:23:46.339
new toothbrush yeah there’s a few things i think

00:23:46.339 –> 00:23:48.819
you know one is and and this relates to why kids

00:23:48.819 –> 00:23:51.440
really don’t like brushing either is that you

00:23:51.440 –> 00:23:54.180
know there’s no immediate reward so it’s not

00:23:54.180 –> 00:23:56.859
like there’s any visual indication or any kind

00:23:56.859 –> 00:24:00.700
of audible kind of result or anything from cleaning

00:24:00.700 –> 00:24:03.240
your teeth properly or not and in fact you know

00:24:03.240 –> 00:24:04.980
you can clean your teeth badly probably for many

00:24:04.980 –> 00:24:07.819
years before you really start to get kind of

00:24:07.819 –> 00:24:09.759
serious kind of pain and issues and everything

00:24:09.759 –> 00:24:13.150
else so think because it’s invisible you know

00:24:13.150 –> 00:24:14.910
what you’re doing because there’s there’s no

00:24:14.910 –> 00:24:18.160
kind of immediate pain or benefit then you know

00:24:18.160 –> 00:24:20.680
that just means that it’s viewed as a chore we

00:24:20.680 –> 00:24:22.119
don’t really want to do it and we don’t really

00:24:22.119 –> 00:24:24.859
do it properly kind of as a result and i think

00:24:24.859 –> 00:24:26.680
particularly with kids you know as parents we’ve

00:24:26.680 –> 00:24:28.779
all battled to try and get our kids to clean

00:24:28.779 –> 00:24:31.759
their teeth i know they just hate doing it right

00:24:31.759 –> 00:24:34.519
and there’s various reasons around that it’s

00:24:34.519 –> 00:24:37.579
it’s unpleasant for a child from a sensory perspective

00:24:37.579 –> 00:24:40.680
i think often if parents start by cleaning the

00:24:40.680 –> 00:24:42.440
children’s teeth you know they can’t feel when

00:24:42.440 –> 00:24:43.839
they’re kind of hitting the back of their mouth

00:24:43.839 –> 00:24:46.600
or anything else inevitably it’s gonna be And

00:24:46.600 –> 00:24:48.480
also the child has to stand still, right, for

00:24:48.480 –> 00:24:51.099
two minutes in front of a mirror. And who wants

00:24:51.099 –> 00:24:53.819
to do that? And once again in our story, we have

00:24:53.819 –> 00:24:56.960
our regularly featured guest, Napoleon Bonaparte,

00:24:57.059 –> 00:25:00.299
showing up, this time invading countries and

00:25:00.299 –> 00:25:02.779
not brushing his teeth. He did brush his teeth,

00:25:02.819 –> 00:25:04.619
by the way. He had a silver -handled toothbrush.

00:25:04.799 –> 00:25:07.119
He was very pedantic about personal care. And

00:25:07.119 –> 00:25:09.460
in the Napoleon Museum, there is his toothbrush

00:25:09.460 –> 00:25:10.920
that he allegedly used. You’re kidding. This

00:25:10.920 –> 00:25:16.960
is fantastic. From my research. And he’s true.

00:25:17.079 –> 00:25:19.720
So both the British and the French also brushed

00:25:19.720 –> 00:25:21.599
their teeth, and it was part of their uniform.

00:25:21.609 –> 00:25:23.809
form to have them within their bags as well so

00:25:23.809 –> 00:25:26.069
so we know that oil care was incredibly important

00:25:26.069 –> 00:25:28.349
then but you were telling me earlier that something

00:25:28.349 –> 00:25:31.450
else happened on the battlefield yeah so basically

00:25:31.450 –> 00:25:34.269
the victors would often obviously loot the corpses

00:25:34.269 –> 00:25:37.190
of the the soldiers that have been killed but

00:25:37.190 –> 00:25:39.049
often one thing they would do is pull out the

00:25:39.049 –> 00:25:40.869
teeth because you could then there was quite

00:25:40.869 –> 00:25:42.670
a market as you said in your story for teeth

00:25:42.670 –> 00:25:45.349
and for having someone else’s teeth put in to

00:25:45.349 –> 00:25:48.210
your mouth. And so after the battle, lots of

00:25:48.210 –> 00:25:50.650
soldiers and soldiers’ wives, in fact, went around

00:25:50.650 –> 00:25:53.109
pulling out all the teeth and they ended up with

00:25:53.109 –> 00:25:55.470
these little bags of teeth that they then take

00:25:55.470 –> 00:25:58.309
home and sell to whoever was then responsible

00:25:58.309 –> 00:26:00.529
for putting it into other people’s mouths. I

00:26:00.529 –> 00:26:03.029
love that the Napoleon equivalent of eBay is

00:26:03.029 –> 00:26:04.369
basically full of different teeth of different

00:26:04.369 –> 00:26:07.210
sizes. You can imagine how difficult it is to

00:26:07.210 –> 00:26:08.809
shop on Amazon and find exactly what you want.

00:26:08.910 –> 00:26:10.509
You’re trying to find a tooth to fit into the

00:26:10.509 –> 00:26:13.230
back of your mouth. It’s a French tooth, it’s

00:26:13.230 –> 00:26:15.349
a British tooth, it’s a… out of a grave. Thank

00:26:15.349 –> 00:26:18.750
goodness for better oral care today. Yeah, and

00:26:18.750 –> 00:26:21.029
also thank goodness for the Napoleonic Wars because

00:26:21.029 –> 00:26:23.769
actually you had all these British soldiers with

00:26:23.769 –> 00:26:26.309
the Addis toothbrush as part of their kit then

00:26:26.309 –> 00:26:28.529
going throughout Europe as a kind of basically

00:26:28.529 –> 00:26:32.069
free marketing for William Addis for his toothbrush

00:26:32.069 –> 00:26:34.670
and it then spread throughout Europe. And this

00:26:34.670 –> 00:26:36.450
is fascinating because that’s both in the Napoleonic

00:26:36.450 –> 00:26:38.730
Wars when effectively the British were spreading

00:26:39.119 –> 00:26:41.500
brushing but we also saw that again in the second

00:26:41.500 –> 00:26:43.559
world war with the american troops being encouraged

00:26:43.559 –> 00:26:45.059
to brush and they had to have wooden brushes

00:26:45.059 –> 00:26:47.420
not the plastic ones because the soldiers were

00:26:47.420 –> 00:26:50.500
were terrified of it being flammable uh never

00:26:50.500 –> 00:26:52.839
a good idea to set fire to your mouth that encouraged

00:26:52.839 –> 00:26:55.259
and changed behavior back into the u .s as troops

00:26:55.259 –> 00:26:57.599
returned and all care them habits then became

00:26:57.599 –> 00:27:01.460
part of everyday life but also toothbrush factories

00:27:01.460 –> 00:27:04.160
were a really good place to hide aircraft and

00:27:04.160 –> 00:27:07.119
addis’s factories yeah addis’s factories weren’t

00:27:07.119 –> 00:27:09.359
just making toothbrushes the troops they were

00:27:09.359 –> 00:27:11.920
hiding aircraft in in specially built bunkers

00:27:11.920 –> 00:27:14.160
so that you know the germans couldn’t couldn’t

00:27:14.160 –> 00:27:16.380
find them so you know when you brush your teeth

00:27:16.380 –> 00:27:18.180
remember helping the war effort i think it’s

00:27:18.180 –> 00:27:19.480
probably the message we want to leave everyone

00:27:19.480 –> 00:27:25.529
with So now talking about the future of toothbrushes

00:27:25.529 –> 00:27:28.430
with us is Simon Eniver, who set up and founded

00:27:28.430 –> 00:27:31.089
Quip. Simon, hello, welcome to the show. Hey,

00:27:31.190 –> 00:27:33.450
good to see you. Yeah, I’m an industrial designer

00:27:33.450 –> 00:27:36.650
and, you know, educated in the UK, born and educated

00:27:36.650 –> 00:27:38.829
in the UK, went to Loughborough University, came

00:27:38.829 –> 00:27:40.730
over to New York straight from school and was

00:27:40.730 –> 00:27:42.750
a design consultant for four or five years and

00:27:42.750 –> 00:27:45.890
then… happened to go to a fateful dental visit

00:27:45.890 –> 00:27:49.710
back in 2012 and left that visit with this idea

00:27:49.710 –> 00:27:52.750
to create an oral care startup. And it became

00:27:52.750 –> 00:27:55.630
called Quip and spent a decade running Quip in

00:27:55.630 –> 00:27:59.029
the US, learning everything you can about toothbrushes

00:27:59.029 –> 00:28:01.589
and oral care. And now I run a venture studio

00:28:01.589 –> 00:28:03.890
where we’re looking to build a next generation

00:28:03.890 –> 00:28:06.390
of startups with industrial design and design

00:28:06.390 –> 00:28:08.569
at the heart of everything. Tell us about this

00:28:08.569 –> 00:28:11.490
fateful dental visit. I have this vision of you

00:28:11.490 –> 00:28:14.750
in some kind of torture chamber lying back like

00:28:14.750 –> 00:28:17.230
the prison that Addis was in and kind of going

00:28:17.230 –> 00:28:20.009
there must be a better way. Why start an oral

00:28:20.009 –> 00:28:21.750
care company and what were the big challenges

00:28:21.750 –> 00:28:24.769
in creating a new toothbrush? Yeah, I mean, it

00:28:24.769 –> 00:28:26.829
was exactly how you imagine the experience. I

00:28:26.829 –> 00:28:29.490
was led back. I mean, honestly, there’s a funny

00:28:29.490 –> 00:28:33.130
UK -US story within there, which was that I thought

00:28:33.130 –> 00:28:35.170
it was going to be your usual four minute UK

00:28:35.170 –> 00:28:37.829
cleaning and it was a 45 minute. us cleaning

00:28:37.829 –> 00:28:42.809
so i was i was like yeah i was led back open

00:28:42.809 –> 00:28:44.869
mouth for 45 minutes and honestly the dentist

00:28:44.869 –> 00:28:47.990
was just ranting about the industry there’s a

00:28:47.990 –> 00:28:50.529
lot to it but the summary was you know oral care

00:28:50.529 –> 00:28:54.839
is so important quite simple to do But most patients,

00:28:54.960 –> 00:28:56.619
most people just don’t bother with the basics.

00:28:57.019 –> 00:28:58.980
And he kind of, you know, I was digging into

00:28:58.980 –> 00:29:01.059
why I’m a designer. You know, I’m always poking

00:29:01.059 –> 00:29:03.240
questions at people as to why that would be the

00:29:03.240 –> 00:29:05.900
case. And his headline was, you know, people

00:29:05.900 –> 00:29:08.240
will not stick to or change bad habits or stick

00:29:08.240 –> 00:29:10.259
to good habits if they just don’t like the thing

00:29:10.259 –> 00:29:13.339
that they’re doing. dislike brushing their teeth

00:29:13.339 –> 00:29:15.940
they hate flossing and they have phobias of going

00:29:15.940 –> 00:29:17.960
to the dentist and he’s like until that changes

00:29:17.960 –> 00:29:20.319
doesn’t matter how many modes you have on a toothbrush

00:29:20.319 –> 00:29:22.740
you’re not going to really change those bad habits

00:29:22.740 –> 00:29:25.099
as you go and so i kind of left that dental visit

00:29:25.099 –> 00:29:27.339
thinking this is a design problem this is kind

00:29:27.339 –> 00:29:29.660
of exactly what we’re tasked with as designers

00:29:29.660 –> 00:29:32.700
is changing habits through products, services,

00:29:32.799 –> 00:29:35.279
and solutions that people want to pick up, want

00:29:35.279 –> 00:29:37.180
to use, you know, want to use differently. And

00:29:37.180 –> 00:29:39.339
that was kind of the origin of Quip. It just

00:29:39.339 –> 00:29:42.839
came out of that dentist’s kind of 45 -minute

00:29:42.839 –> 00:29:45.380
rant where you could say nothing much because…

00:29:45.380 –> 00:29:49.339
I was just sat there genuinely soaking it all

00:29:49.339 –> 00:29:52.539
in, you know? Yeah. How hard is it to change

00:29:52.539 –> 00:29:54.700
someone’s behaviour, particularly with the challenge

00:29:54.700 –> 00:29:56.759
of going from something people really don’t want

00:29:56.759 –> 00:29:58.400
to do to getting it to something that people

00:29:58.400 –> 00:30:01.420
really enjoy doing? And why, as designers, do

00:30:01.420 –> 00:30:03.640
we feel it’s our responsibility to kind of make

00:30:03.640 –> 00:30:07.240
that change? Yeah, I mean, I think it’s one of

00:30:07.240 –> 00:30:10.039
the hardest things possible. Going through that

00:30:10.039 –> 00:30:12.000
journey, we learned that I think it’s by seven

00:30:12.000 –> 00:30:14.299
years old, you’ve formed most of your habits,

00:30:14.559 –> 00:30:16.680
especially sticky ones, you know, things like

00:30:16.680 –> 00:30:18.119
brushing your teeth. Picking your nose, that

00:30:18.119 –> 00:30:20.640
sort of thing. Yeah, exactly. And once they’re

00:30:20.640 –> 00:30:22.440
formed, it’s really, really difficult to change

00:30:22.440 –> 00:30:27.000
back. I guess our insight was that people, companies

00:30:27.000 –> 00:30:29.700
had been trying the feature version of how to

00:30:29.700 –> 00:30:32.119
solve that, you know, like different modes, different

00:30:32.119 –> 00:30:35.180
feelings, different whatever. But no one had

00:30:35.180 –> 00:30:37.259
really taken the approach of the other people

00:30:37.259 –> 00:30:39.019
were taking in other industries, you know, in

00:30:39.019 –> 00:30:42.180
the cosmetic space and shaving of just creating

00:30:42.180 –> 00:30:44.619
something that people liked, you know, they wanted

00:30:44.619 –> 00:30:46.680
to talk about. They wanted to, in our case, put

00:30:46.680 –> 00:30:49.000
on their mirror and have out, you know. And so

00:30:49.000 –> 00:30:51.420
we just took a very, I don’t love using the word

00:30:51.420 –> 00:30:54.339
lifestyle, but kind of. definitely consumer focused

00:30:54.339 –> 00:30:56.099
approached and like really spoke to people like,

00:30:56.140 –> 00:30:58.059
why, why do you hate this? Oh, it’s the wires.

00:30:58.160 –> 00:31:01.259
It’s the, you know, it’s the ball. It’s the noise.

00:31:01.299 –> 00:31:04.420
It’s waking up. Yeah. The market. Exactly. And,

00:31:04.519 –> 00:31:07.160
you know, so I think the attempts out there were

00:31:07.160 –> 00:31:09.839
just missing maybe the point of what, why people

00:31:09.839 –> 00:31:11.720
weren’t wanting to brush their teeth. Do you

00:31:11.720 –> 00:31:13.079
think some of it was because you’re coming from

00:31:13.079 –> 00:31:15.059
a fresh idea? So you, you know, you didn’t come

00:31:15.059 –> 00:31:16.940
from an all car company. You weren’t working

00:31:16.940 –> 00:31:18.359
for the, you know, the big consumer companies.

00:31:18.720 –> 00:31:21.400
You came from a, you know, pure industrial design.

00:31:22.319 –> 00:31:25.099
duty form engineering perspective is that fresh

00:31:25.099 –> 00:31:26.559
eyes really important when you’re looking at

00:31:26.559 –> 00:31:28.519
these sort of problems i think completely i think

00:31:28.519 –> 00:31:30.779
that was the entire reason that we were able

00:31:30.779 –> 00:31:33.039
to disrupt the industry you know everyone everyone

00:31:33.039 –> 00:31:36.859
told me every i guess initially you know dentist

00:31:36.859 –> 00:31:39.500
we met investor we pitched you know was like

00:31:39.500 –> 00:31:41.900
what are you doing you know there’s three four

00:31:41.900 –> 00:31:45.880
giant global companies in this space running

00:31:45.880 –> 00:31:48.079
this space there’s no chance of all the money

00:31:48.079 –> 00:31:49.480
in the world that you’re going to disrupt it

00:31:49.480 –> 00:31:53.420
and um and we just had this It was somewhat initially

00:31:53.420 –> 00:31:55.980
a gut feeling. We were like, yeah, but no one’s

00:31:55.980 –> 00:31:58.759
doing the thing that the consumer’s asking. Clearly,

00:31:58.940 –> 00:32:02.579
no one is speaking to people in an open, going

00:32:02.579 –> 00:32:07.440
into their bathrooms way. And I guess, yeah,

00:32:07.579 –> 00:32:11.240
our insights were so different to what was coming

00:32:11.240 –> 00:32:13.980
onto the market. thinking like, well, we’re hearing

00:32:13.980 –> 00:32:15.599
what people are saying that they don’t like about

00:32:15.599 –> 00:32:18.339
what’s out there. So we pushed forward. I definitely

00:32:18.339 –> 00:32:20.559
noticed when working in oil care that there wasn’t

00:32:20.559 –> 00:32:22.660
the consideration for the beauty in the bathroom.

00:32:22.819 –> 00:32:25.079
You weren’t making products that were designed

00:32:25.079 –> 00:32:28.000
primarily as something which you treasure in

00:32:28.000 –> 00:32:29.880
your home, like you would do in, say, kitchen

00:32:29.880 –> 00:32:32.359
appliances. They were being designed from a functional

00:32:32.359 –> 00:32:34.099
perspective. And I think what you’ve been able

00:32:34.099 –> 00:32:37.440
to do with your company is create… a beautiful

00:32:37.440 –> 00:32:40.700
product and i wonder how how important is the

00:32:40.700 –> 00:32:43.339
aesthetics alone or the the kind of the humor

00:32:43.339 –> 00:32:46.119
-centered functionality alone the bit that makes

00:32:46.119 –> 00:32:47.519
a difference when a design of a product like

00:32:47.519 –> 00:32:51.269
it like a toothbrush I mean, for us, it was it

00:32:51.269 –> 00:32:53.109
was almost one of those things where we were

00:32:53.109 –> 00:32:56.269
embarrassed to say when we were developing it,

00:32:56.289 –> 00:32:57.890
particularly when we were talking to dentists

00:32:57.890 –> 00:32:59.769
in the industry, we were almost embarrassed to

00:32:59.769 –> 00:33:02.369
linger on the aesthetics because it’s a serious

00:33:02.369 –> 00:33:04.950
industry. It’s a health problem. It’s a health

00:33:04.950 –> 00:33:07.029
product. And then we’d show them the product

00:33:07.029 –> 00:33:11.549
and they’d be like, that’s important. And they

00:33:11.549 –> 00:33:13.930
would be the ones saying, like, that is the key.

00:33:14.009 –> 00:33:16.549
That is the key thing, because they think they

00:33:16.549 –> 00:33:19.880
got it. They’re like. the story that you guys

00:33:19.880 –> 00:33:21.859
made you know it touches on a lot of this like

00:33:21.859 –> 00:33:24.180
anything just the dentists just want you to pick

00:33:24.180 –> 00:33:27.200
up a brush and again to the point even of electric

00:33:27.200 –> 00:33:29.559
toothbrush versus manual it’s really about getting

00:33:29.559 –> 00:33:32.099
you to want to use it enjoy using a bit better

00:33:32.099 –> 00:33:34.019
so anything of it that gets you just to pick

00:33:34.019 –> 00:33:36.940
it up use it for two minutes twice a day and

00:33:36.940 –> 00:33:39.960
so on was huge so it was everything in the end

00:33:39.960 –> 00:33:42.769
you know like we basically ended up picking the

00:33:42.769 –> 00:33:45.349
features dentists, the simple features dentists

00:33:45.349 –> 00:33:47.970
were saying were must -haves. The timer, ultimately

00:33:47.970 –> 00:33:49.990
now, you know, pressure sensors and so on. But

00:33:49.990 –> 00:33:53.509
the timer, some sort of movement to get the bristles

00:33:53.509 –> 00:33:55.789
into your gum line. Ultimately, the aesthetic

00:33:55.789 –> 00:33:57.910
was the big win. You know, it was the reason

00:33:57.910 –> 00:34:00.460
when we spoke to our consumers. When we said,

00:34:00.640 –> 00:34:02.500
why are you now brushing more often? They were

00:34:02.500 –> 00:34:05.579
like, because I like the product, you know. It

00:34:05.579 –> 00:34:07.559
makes me feel good. It looks good. And I was

00:34:07.559 –> 00:34:09.260
just preparing for this. I actually grabbed some

00:34:09.260 –> 00:34:11.840
brushes to show in the videos here. And I realized

00:34:11.840 –> 00:34:13.679
they were really filthy and I had to get the

00:34:13.679 –> 00:34:17.059
nail brush out to scrub them. I honestly can’t

00:34:17.059 –> 00:34:18.880
think of the last time I cleaned my electric

00:34:18.880 –> 00:34:21.219
brushes, you know. But the car, you know, it

00:34:21.219 –> 00:34:22.679
went to a car wash the other day because it was

00:34:22.679 –> 00:34:25.500
a bit dirty. And you’re right. We don’t, we don’t.

00:34:25.800 –> 00:34:27.739
We don’t have the reverence, perhaps, in these

00:34:27.739 –> 00:34:29.599
brushes that we deal with, say, some of our other

00:34:29.599 –> 00:34:31.699
products. So that must make it even more challenging

00:34:31.699 –> 00:34:33.659
to design them and engineer them. Oh, yeah. There’s

00:34:33.659 –> 00:34:35.539
very different standards, I think, we all have

00:34:35.539 –> 00:34:37.079
about different products. And I think it comes

00:34:37.079 –> 00:34:38.840
to what we’re willing to invest in them as well.

00:34:39.159 –> 00:34:41.539
People will happily invest hundreds of dollars

00:34:41.539 –> 00:34:43.880
even now on, let’s say, cosmetics that might

00:34:43.880 –> 00:34:45.659
last a month. You know, you’ve got this toothbrush

00:34:45.659 –> 00:34:48.219
thing, which is driving whether or not you need

00:34:48.219 –> 00:34:52.010
a 3 ,000. pound or dollar root canal in 20 years,

00:34:52.070 –> 00:34:54.269
and you’re very unwilling to spend more than

00:34:54.269 –> 00:34:57.289
$5 or £5, you know, on a toothbrush. So it’s,

00:34:57.309 –> 00:35:00.530
it sits in a very challenging space in people’s

00:35:00.530 –> 00:35:02.909
minds. I’m curious as to what Phil and Simon,

00:35:02.969 –> 00:35:05.429
what you think the future of toothbrushes might

00:35:05.429 –> 00:35:08.050
be like, what’s the laser for mouthwashers, guys?

00:35:08.130 –> 00:35:10.190
What’s the kind of the technology champ that

00:35:10.190 –> 00:35:12.150
we’re looking for, or the consumer experience

00:35:12.150 –> 00:35:14.530
job that we’re looking for? And, you know, how

00:35:14.530 –> 00:35:16.849
do we how do we kind of bring it up in the value

00:35:16.849 –> 00:35:19.239
that we see, say, in vacuum cleaners? or IPL

00:35:19.239 –> 00:35:20.840
laser for, you know, skincare and stuff like

00:35:20.840 –> 00:35:22.800
that. Yeah, I’d love to see something that is

00:35:22.800 –> 00:35:25.139
just really quick. It’s not actually a lot of

00:35:25.139 –> 00:35:26.739
time, two minutes morning, two minutes night,

00:35:26.840 –> 00:35:28.500
you know, that type of thing. But people still

00:35:28.500 –> 00:35:30.980
feel it’s ages. And certainly, you know, as a

00:35:30.980 –> 00:35:33.420
dad of three teenage boys, I’m lucky if I get

00:35:33.420 –> 00:35:36.099
them to clean their teeth for 20 seconds. And

00:35:36.099 –> 00:35:38.440
yeah, I just love something that would brush

00:35:38.440 –> 00:35:41.719
your teeth, get in between them like floss does,

00:35:41.780 –> 00:35:44.559
do whatever’s necessary in terms of tongue cleaning

00:35:44.559 –> 00:35:46.920
that I don’t even understand properly. And like

00:35:46.920 –> 00:35:49.090
did a whole lot of like… 15 seconds for me

00:35:49.090 –> 00:35:52.010
and i’m done that would be perfect that’s why

00:35:52.010 –> 00:35:54.030
i’d love to see the future as yeah i kind of

00:35:54.030 –> 00:35:56.289
i mean i agree and i know people are trying it

00:35:56.289 –> 00:35:58.150
you know there’s there’s examples out there of

00:35:58.150 –> 00:36:00.489
the attempt i think literally one might have

00:36:00.489 –> 00:36:02.530
been called the 15 second toothbrush at some

00:36:02.530 –> 00:36:05.110
point i do think that’s the aim uh you know kind

00:36:05.110 –> 00:36:06.849
of brushing them all at the same time essentially

00:36:06.849 –> 00:36:09.769
and we’re not quite there yet clearly when it

00:36:09.769 –> 00:36:11.949
comes to the match of the technology and the

00:36:11.949 –> 00:36:14.710
price point to that that goal but that’s got

00:36:14.710 –> 00:36:17.269
to be the aim i think it’s uh There’s no reason

00:36:17.269 –> 00:36:20.849
why you can’t brush all your teeth at the same

00:36:20.849 –> 00:36:22.869
time, which is how you get, I think, down to

00:36:22.869 –> 00:36:26.090
that 10 -second mark. But you’ve got to do it

00:36:26.090 –> 00:36:29.449
well. And I think that’s a big leap. And oddly

00:36:29.449 –> 00:36:32.409
complicated, mostly because we all have completely

00:36:32.409 –> 00:36:35.489
unique mouths. How do you measure the gum line?

00:36:36.190 –> 00:36:38.230
It’s all about getting the gum line. So how do

00:36:38.230 –> 00:36:40.889
you get in and make sure that every individual’s

00:36:40.889 –> 00:36:44.329
gum line is precisely mapped in order to be properly

00:36:44.329 –> 00:36:46.500
cleaned? You know, we’re talking about things

00:36:46.500 –> 00:36:48.840
that are possible. Just putting it in a device

00:36:48.840 –> 00:36:50.519
that doesn’t cost, you know, a thousand dollars

00:36:50.519 –> 00:36:53.019
and feel weird in your mouth is probably where

00:36:53.019 –> 00:36:54.619
the problem lies. And that’s really the heart

00:36:54.619 –> 00:36:56.039
of the challenge, isn’t it? That every mouth

00:36:56.039 –> 00:36:58.039
is different. And, you know, and obviously when

00:36:58.039 –> 00:36:59.500
you clean your teeth, you might have just eaten

00:36:59.500 –> 00:37:01.179
or you might have just had orange juice or sugar.

00:37:01.360 –> 00:37:03.920
The actual experience is very hard. And we are

00:37:03.920 –> 00:37:05.539
beginning to see that sort of work, though. So

00:37:05.539 –> 00:37:08.059
if we think about like the braces that are moulded

00:37:08.059 –> 00:37:10.579
to your teeth and that the individual piece of

00:37:10.579 –> 00:37:12.320
work, but then you’re talking, you know, four

00:37:12.320 –> 00:37:14.280
thousand pounds for treatment to kind of bring

00:37:14.280 –> 00:37:17.190
yourself in. And I think… This goes back perhaps

00:37:17.190 –> 00:37:18.889
to the level of investment you’re willing to

00:37:18.889 –> 00:37:21.570
make. If you were willing to spend £4 ,000 on

00:37:21.570 –> 00:37:24.769
a bespoke system that would do your teeth every

00:37:24.769 –> 00:37:27.570
time, then maybe those technologies would become

00:37:27.570 –> 00:37:30.409
viable for us as a design and engineering guys.

00:37:30.690 –> 00:37:32.050
Yeah, and I think the talent is probably getting

00:37:32.050 –> 00:37:34.489
there. 3D scanners and stuff are improving all

00:37:34.489 –> 00:37:37.309
the time. Obviously, 3D printing, you can 3D

00:37:37.309 –> 00:37:40.570
print in metal -grade materials now that are

00:37:40.570 –> 00:37:42.489
safe to put in the mouth, safe to actually put

00:37:42.489 –> 00:37:45.739
in the body permanently. Some of the key… technical

00:37:45.739 –> 00:37:48.880
requirements are getting there and i suspect

00:37:48.880 –> 00:37:50.699
there is a market actually for some people who

00:37:50.699 –> 00:37:52.420
are prepared to spend four thousand pounds on

00:37:52.420 –> 00:37:54.400
something that basically they have for the rest

00:37:54.400 –> 00:37:57.039
of their adult life that is going to save them

00:37:57.039 –> 00:38:00.090
that time every day and guarantee in inverted

00:38:00.090 –> 00:38:02.989
commas, that their teeth are brushed really well

00:38:02.989 –> 00:38:05.570
and they don’t have those expensive dental bills.

00:38:06.110 –> 00:38:10.010
It may be the business model around that as a

00:38:10.010 –> 00:38:12.010
lease model. So maybe you’re paying £10 a month

00:38:12.010 –> 00:38:14.309
for it for the next kind of 40 years or whatever

00:38:14.309 –> 00:38:17.909
it is. It needs to develop so that actually you

00:38:17.909 –> 00:38:19.630
don’t have that kind of upfront cost to kind

00:38:19.630 –> 00:38:21.809
of get the volume there. But I suspect at the

00:38:21.809 –> 00:38:24.030
moment to have a device that’s personalised to

00:38:24.030 –> 00:38:26.469
you that will clean your teeth that well, you’re

00:38:26.469 –> 00:38:28.070
probably not talking £4 ,000, you’re probably

00:38:28.070 –> 00:38:31.139
talking £4 ,000. £40 ,000 so I think that’s probably

00:38:31.139 –> 00:38:33.579
the challenge is going from a device that’s that

00:38:33.579 –> 00:38:35.940
kind of money to something that actually you

00:38:35.940 –> 00:38:39.110
could through a system get to a point where actually

00:38:39.110 –> 00:38:42.030
it is then affordable in inverted commas. I am

00:38:42.030 –> 00:38:43.989
hoping someone’s listening to this and kind of

00:38:43.989 –> 00:38:45.909
sketching something quickly now that’s going

00:38:45.909 –> 00:38:48.269
to solve all our problems. One question then

00:38:48.269 –> 00:38:51.409
about toothpaste. So it’s always frustrated me

00:38:51.409 –> 00:38:53.150
that toothpaste and toothbrushes are separate.

00:38:53.590 –> 00:38:57.130
Is that a technical reason? Is it the goo inside

00:38:57.130 –> 00:38:59.769
that you can’t squeeze out? Is it a chemical

00:38:59.769 –> 00:39:01.789
reason? Is it a business reason? Are the big

00:39:01.789 –> 00:39:03.650
companies kind of protective of it? Or is it…

00:39:04.280 –> 00:39:07.739
habitual like why why is this such a complex

00:39:07.739 –> 00:39:11.000
problem i feel like that the the toothbrush with

00:39:11.000 –> 00:39:13.579
the toothpaste inside is every industrial designer’s

00:39:13.579 –> 00:39:18.800
first design idea i think i sketched one i remember

00:39:18.800 –> 00:39:20.880
it being a thing back at the time of the concept

00:39:21.670 –> 00:39:24.170
I’m sure Phil does as well. It’s hard, it’s hard.

00:39:24.309 –> 00:39:27.409
Squeezing out is hard, yeah. My take is it is

00:39:27.409 –> 00:39:29.409
all the things she said. Sorry to be the copper

00:39:29.409 –> 00:39:32.389
answer, but I think it’s both the physical difficulty

00:39:32.389 –> 00:39:35.670
of having that liquid part in it. Really, you’re

00:39:35.670 –> 00:39:37.250
talking about a consumer electronic product,

00:39:37.409 –> 00:39:40.250
not just a, let’s say, manual toothbrush. I think

00:39:40.250 –> 00:39:42.210
all of that is very difficult. Toothpaste goes

00:39:42.210 –> 00:39:45.570
off, it hardens. You’re just bringing risk. A

00:39:45.570 –> 00:39:47.730
product that already is high risk to break because

00:39:47.730 –> 00:39:49.030
of the environment it’s in, you’re making it

00:39:49.030 –> 00:39:51.989
even more difficult, even higher risk than it

00:39:51.989 –> 00:39:54.670
could break. I would also bring business modeling.

00:39:54.949 –> 00:39:57.030
There’s some very big, powerful companies that

00:39:57.030 –> 00:40:00.900
run toothpaste. I think that there’s a… absolutely

00:40:00.900 –> 00:40:03.159
business and business model reasons and just

00:40:03.159 –> 00:40:05.360
brand reasons that that’s not happened as well.

00:40:05.500 –> 00:40:07.380
I think it’s also consumer choice, right? So

00:40:07.380 –> 00:40:09.360
people have their favorite brand of toothpaste.

00:40:09.559 –> 00:40:11.480
So if you suddenly come out with a toothbrush

00:40:11.480 –> 00:40:13.960
that’s got the toothpaste built in as a capsule,

00:40:14.159 –> 00:40:16.139
you’ve actually suddenly got to have like eight

00:40:16.139 –> 00:40:18.039
different SKUs so that you’ve got the Colgate

00:40:18.039 –> 00:40:19.860
one and this one and the Aquafresh and all this

00:40:19.860 –> 00:40:22.099
kind of other stuff. And you’ve got to do deals

00:40:22.099 –> 00:40:23.619
with those big companies that they’re going to

00:40:23.619 –> 00:40:26.139
supply you so that you can put them into the

00:40:26.139 –> 00:40:28.239
toothbrush in the first place. And they’re not

00:40:28.239 –> 00:40:30.980
easy companies to get into. with in any way so

00:40:30.980 –> 00:40:33.920
um yeah there’s there’s some real challenges

00:40:33.920 –> 00:40:35.400
there to anyone who kind of wants to try and

00:40:35.400 –> 00:40:37.639
achieve that from a commercial perspective What

00:40:37.639 –> 00:40:39.559
do you guys then think Captain Kirk would be

00:40:39.559 –> 00:40:41.159
using in the future? You know, we never see him

00:40:41.159 –> 00:40:42.920
brushing his teeth in Star Trek, and I’m always

00:40:42.920 –> 00:40:45.039
intrigued. Are people still going to be brushing?

00:40:45.139 –> 00:40:47.599
Is it going to be an evolution like the sonic

00:40:47.599 –> 00:40:49.340
brushes? Or is it going to be plasma or the water

00:40:49.340 –> 00:40:51.860
swimmers? Or is it going to be, you know, Phil’s

00:40:51.860 –> 00:40:53.699
sort of in -mouth, mouth guard, total thing?

00:40:53.840 –> 00:40:55.460
Like, what do we think that future looks like?

00:40:55.559 –> 00:40:57.119
Look, I think the first question is, do we all

00:40:57.119 –> 00:40:58.559
have teeth? Because I feel like there’s a trend

00:40:58.559 –> 00:41:01.059
of people having fake teeth, which I hope doesn’t

00:41:01.059 –> 00:41:03.199
go too far. Not again, not again. That happened,

00:41:03.800 –> 00:41:05.840
you know, when the sugar came about. I hope we

00:41:05.840 –> 00:41:08.139
got rid of that. Yeah, real teeth is better.

00:41:08.519 –> 00:41:10.719
Let’s assume we have real teeth. I think, look,

00:41:10.840 –> 00:41:13.639
I think it is a version of an all -in -one, you

00:41:13.639 –> 00:41:15.800
know, in -mouth thing. I do think that, to your

00:41:15.800 –> 00:41:19.300
point, Ben, that the, I think, you know, it ultimately

00:41:19.300 –> 00:41:23.139
will then have to combine liquid and, you know,

00:41:23.199 –> 00:41:25.659
physical brushing. But, yeah, I think you’re

00:41:25.659 –> 00:41:28.139
going to be putting some sort of an ultra -slim.

00:41:28.800 –> 00:41:30.599
mouth guard type thing in your mouth, pressing

00:41:30.599 –> 00:41:33.000
a button, and it’s going to be kind of like a

00:41:33.000 –> 00:41:36.099
car wash or a water flosser mixed with toothbrush,

00:41:36.320 –> 00:41:37.980
mixed with car wash, mixed with mouthwash, mixed

00:41:37.980 –> 00:41:40.800
with toothpaste, all in one. There’s things out

00:41:40.800 –> 00:41:43.059
there that’s starting to do those elements. Again,

00:41:43.179 –> 00:41:47.019
price point, comfort, customization, that’s the

00:41:47.019 –> 00:41:49.639
tougher part. And we’re clearly not quite there

00:41:49.639 –> 00:41:52.559
yet. But I don’t think we’re as far away as we

00:41:52.559 –> 00:41:55.150
might feel right now. I think I’d add to that.

00:41:55.230 –> 00:41:57.769
I think it’s probably going to be supplied by

00:41:57.769 –> 00:42:00.949
Captain Kirk’s doctor slash dentist. I’ve no

00:42:00.949 –> 00:42:02.670
idea what they’re called, bones, is that right?

00:42:02.750 –> 00:42:05.849
Dr. McCoy, yeah, Dr. McCoy’s mouth gloss it will

00:42:05.849 –> 00:42:08.809
be. Yeah, so I think it will be leased from Dr.

00:42:08.949 –> 00:42:11.710
McCoy to his patient and I think it’s probably

00:42:11.710 –> 00:42:13.730
got a lot of AI stuff built in it as well that

00:42:13.730 –> 00:42:16.789
is scanning the teeth, you’ve got a cavity forming

00:42:16.789 –> 00:42:18.730
here so you can get that preventative action

00:42:18.730 –> 00:42:21.670
in really soon and I think it’s probably actually

00:42:21.670 –> 00:42:24.809
a pretty expensive device but that is linked

00:42:24.809 –> 00:42:28.269
to your overall oral health care and you are

00:42:28.269 –> 00:42:30.900
prepared to pay a… monthly subscription for

00:42:30.900 –> 00:42:33.119
because it’s preventing larger medical bills

00:42:33.119 –> 00:42:35.599
kind of further down the line is what I suspect.

00:42:36.360 –> 00:42:38.159
I love that. I love that. I love that. The Netflix

00:42:38.159 –> 00:42:41.940
subscription for your mouth. And that’s awesome.

00:42:42.519 –> 00:42:44.300
Simon and Phil, thank you so much for answering

00:42:44.300 –> 00:42:46.179
our questions today on the future of the toothbrush.

00:42:46.420 –> 00:42:48.659
And thank you for listening to Why the Fork.

00:42:48.739 –> 00:42:51.860
Thanks to you, we’re a top 10 % of all podcasts,

00:42:52.119 –> 00:42:54.360
which is amazing for a little chatty podcast

00:42:54.360 –> 00:42:56.679
about the design of everyday objects in your

00:42:56.679 –> 00:42:59.219
home and office. We really appreciate it. But

00:42:59.219 –> 00:43:01.460
please do keep liking, subscribing and downloading

00:43:01.460 –> 00:43:03.659
it. And please tell your friends, your family

00:43:03.659 –> 00:43:06.960
and even your dentist. Join us on our next episode

00:43:06.960 –> 00:43:08.079
of Why the Fork.