Why the toaster? Glowing wires, burnt bread and a design that stuck

WEBVTT

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Hello and welcome to Why the Fork, where we bring

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the wonder of everyday objects to your ears.

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I’m Ben Diamond, an inventor of consumer products,

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and together with Phil Staunton, our design expert,

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we’ll be uncovering the humble beginnings of

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the products you touch all the time. This is

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a podcast by D2M Design. Oh, and of course, we’ll

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have a special guest at the end of the show to

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help unlock the future of innovations. Possibly

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lasers, you know. a clums on because in today’s

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episode you join me over the ultimate breakfast

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question what came first sliced bread or the

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toaster this is one of my favorite innovations

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and not for the obvious reason that it’s yummy

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but because it represents the whole of the global

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supply chain and yet it delicately sits on the

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side of your counter looking beautiful in your

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kitchen browning and occasionally burning, sliced

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bread. It is, of course, why the toaster. So

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why am I so passionate about toast, or the toaster?

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Like the desk fan before it, it represents the

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principle of industrial design, combining beautiful

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functionality and stylish packages. But perhaps

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more importantly, it represents the connected

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nature of industry. and how, today, we are so

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reliant on the skills of engineers and miners

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throughout the world in bringing ease, design

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and safety to your home. Now, the toaster did

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not have such a prodigious beginning. It never

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imagined it would represent the challenges of

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Trey Tarris or chemical genius. It was, well,

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just a toaster. So why the toaster? What created

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the need? When did people get out of the caves

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in the morning and demand slightly singed bread

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and cry, I need toast! and pass the jam? We’ve

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been eating bread since, well, for quite some

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time. It really was part of the dawn of civilisation.

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The anthropologist and general polymath Jared

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Diamond, no relation, suggests in Guns, Germs

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and Steel that it… Wheat, or at least the precursor

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to it, and then bread, originated in the fertile

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crescent, right back at the dawn of our civilisation.

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You can imagine our ancient first people sitting

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down to a nice cheese and pickle sandwich. And

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remember that it’s not universal. Much of the

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world does not have wheat or its precursor and

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cannot grind it, and therefore doesn’t have bread

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or a toaster. Much of Asian food is rice -based.

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a different grain. Africa, bean -based. Bread

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simply did not exist. Jared goes on to argue

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that it’s part of the disparity between different

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civilisations, even today. If only they had invented

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the sandwich and a nice cup of tea, we wouldn’t

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have had such global divisions, war and such.

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But the ancient Babylonians, Egyptians, Romans

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and Middle Eastern cultures spread into India,

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where wheat and similar grains were available.

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And separately, in South America, the Aztecs

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used corn maize -based bread too. So much, but

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not all of the world. And the problem with bread,

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well, especially those of you who’ve made it

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at home, you sourdoughers, you, is that it doesn’t

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last long. I mean, it doesn’t get eaten quickly.

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I mean, it gets hard and stale. Think French

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baguettes, fresh in the morning, but by evening,

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hard and crusty and only good for croutons in

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onion soup. And this is where toasting comes

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in. Take a little bit of slightly stale bread

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and place it onto a toasting fork. Hey, we should

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do that as an episode. And heat it in front of

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an open fire. It will caramelise the surface.

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This Maillard reaction, it’s the same as when

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you sear a steak or char vegetables or the tiger

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prints on the edge of pizza in an oven. It’s

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the amino acids and sugars reacting to the heat

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and doing amazing things in the high, above -boiling,

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dry heat. This makes it easier to digest, helping

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to convert the sugars, and even starts us all

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salivating at the smell. You might even be feeling

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a bit peckish now. Now this could be over an

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open fire, or as we develop more homes, coal

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fires, particularly in the UK. But just like

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toasting marshmallows, not enough heat and it

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becomes warm and soggy, no Maillard reaction,

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and too much and it becomes burnt, or worse,

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catches fire. Plus, you want to toast both sides.

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That means grabbing the hot toast and pulling

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it off the fork before plunging it back into

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the fire for the other half. That’s a lot of

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effort for a bit of marmalade. So you’d imagine

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there’d be lots of clever chaps inventing toasters

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to prevent the massive need of burnt fingers.

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But really, the toasting was to use up the stale

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bread rather than the way to eat toast. And bread

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was bought or made daily and eaten fresh wherever

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possible. managing the small amount of burnt

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toast and fingers was not a big deal not enough

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of a demand even in industrial settings hospitals

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warships where we would serve toast to -day we

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were happy enough to serve bread possibly warmed

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and there’s great footage of the soldiers from

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dunkirk returning home to be given buttered or

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jammed bread not toast Like our story of the

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hair straightener and the iron, or the chisels

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and the tin cans, the open fire and the cast

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iron stoves that replaced him were good enough

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for the consumer and therefore there was not

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a rampaging mob of hungry breakfasters demanding

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designers to create a solution. Meanwhile the

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boffins were busy elsewhere. In 1905 Albert L

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Marsh worked in a lab with William Hoskins, the

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famous chemist and inventor of the billiard chalk.

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Marsh had been working on thermocouples. That’s

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a bit of electrical wizardry that generates electricity

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from heat. He was working on an alloy of nickel

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and chromium that Marsh thought could be used

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for making light from the heat of farmers’ wood

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stoves. But this clever wire had an even better

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opportunity. Marsh’s 1906 patent is with a ratio

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of 9 to 1 nickel to chromium. Now… Marsh and

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Hoskins really should both have been on this

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patent. But Hoskins had lost out to a previous

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filing because when he jointly applied, it had

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been rejected. The patent office said that only

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one person could be known as an inventor. Two

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people could not have come up with one idea.

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Now, guys, I know you’ve been listening for a

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few episodes. You know that it takes a lot of

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people to come up with a great idea in workshops

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or stuff. It’s the sparks that flies with multiple

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people bounce ideas around. And in all my inventions,

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it’s a team that creates them. So please feel

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sorry for William Hoskins. He could have been

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known as the inventor of the toaster rather than

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just the billiard chalk. By shoving electricity

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through the wire. it gets hot, and its high resistance

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means that it generates a lot of heat. You might

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remember old -style light bulbs with their curly

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elements. You might even remember they got hot.

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That’s because as the electricity is pushed through

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the wire, it resists it, generating both light,

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which is good, and heat, which is in this case

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bad. a lot of heat but light bulbs well they

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had to be encased in glass to protect the wire

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from the air otherwise the wire would oxidize

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or burn through now nichrome wire well it does

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the same it heats up but it’s really resistant

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it doesn’t need the glass bulb it just generates

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heat that means it’s perfect for heating up ovens

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electric ovens and of course toast He named his

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alloy chromel and painted it an electric hot

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plate with a flat spiral of coiled wire inside

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the metal disc. There was an optional toasting

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accessory. At last, toast. Now, apparently, the

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Hoskins company did make a toaster, but didn’t

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make any money from it. Now, I’ve been in a lot

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of companies where you get told an idea is bad

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and isn’t going to make any cash. You can imagine

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the conversation. No, we don’t want to make toast.

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The market size of toast is too small. We’re

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going to focus on lab furnaces and industrial

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equipment. But when the giant General Electric

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began to sell the D12 toaster in 1909 using the

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same metal, Marsh sued. And this is when we get

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into the world of patents. you see the big ge

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company who seemed to like being in court well

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they took marsh’s idea of mixing two metals to

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make the resistance of the wire but then mixed

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it with a couple of extra metals and said it

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was different the patent office disagreed and

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marsh won big making him and hoskins pretty wealthy

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he became known as a slow -spoken tousled deliberate

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metal man marsh wearing polka -dot ties and rarely

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being seen without a cigar like our episode on

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the hair straightener and the fictitious lady

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jennifer bell if you google who invented the

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toast on the internet it will tell you a lie

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In 2012, a group of Scottish aeronautical engineering

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students decided to play a prank and edit a Wikipedia

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article to say that Alan McMasters invented the

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toaster in Scotland in 1893. It included doctored

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photos of themselves and a very believable backstory

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and history. And then they got reputable people

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to start referencing this article. And then the

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Wikipedia article started citing those references.

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you ended up with this circular reference. Even

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in my research for this episode, in very respected

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sources, Alan McMaster still shows up as the

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inventor, and Marsh is only credited with reinventing

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the toaster after a made -up fire put people

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off the idea. Why the forkers? It’s why you should

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never believe what’s written on the internet.

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I mean, I could be just making this stuff up.

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But the toaster was not invented in Scotland,

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but in Detroit, Michigan. And with the nichrome

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wire. Despite stealing the wire from Marsh, General

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Electric’s D12 toaster was the first commercially

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successful toaster, invented in 1909 by Frank

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Shalour. It looks a bit odd. A wire frame with

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four heating elements resembling little Christmas

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trees. The frame is wrapped around them so that

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you can lean two slices of bread. one either

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side of it against it. A little lip of wire around

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the edge holds them in place. These elements

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and wires are screwed onto a ceramic base plate

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because plastics hadn’t been invented yet. And

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the whole thing is then powered by a cable ending

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with an Edison screw light bulb fitting. Hang

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on a minute. Light bulb? Yeah, you see, early

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electricity was rolling out. The first power

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stations were built 30 years earlier to provide

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power for electric lighting. Sell them the bulbs

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and then sell them the power to light the bulbs.

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And since there wasn’t much need for electricity

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for other stuff, all the power came down from

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the ceiling to the new appliances. You plugged

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your toaster or washing machine into the lighting

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socket in the ceiling. So plug in your toaster,

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turn the light switch on and the heating element

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heats up thanks to Marsh. And there’s no pop.

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You see, when you were happy with the colour

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of your toast, you picked it up and turned it

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over. So it was better than an open fire, faster

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than the stovetop, but not quite ideal yet. But

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people loved it. It showed you were sophisticated.

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It meant you could use up stale bread and create

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even more toast. It was also a relatively low

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cost accessible product, say versus a new oven

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or early fridges. It’s a must have object in

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your house. And then with the invention of baker

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-like plastics and explosion of shapes and forms,

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larger ones for cafes with chrome steel with

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art deco styling and the first that could cook

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with two sides was genius. No more burnt fingers.

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But there remains one problem. You still have

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to manually turn the toast. Pop out for a minute

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and the nice brown back becomes a black cloud

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of burning. So only ten years later, Charles

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P. Strite was having coffee in a cafeteria at

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Stillwater, Minneapolis, and was served burnt

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toast. This inspired him to create a toaster

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that would toast automatically. And in 1921,

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Strite patented the Toastmaster. It could toast

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both slices of a slice of bread at the same time.

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which is no mean feat when you only have a light

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bulb’s worth of power to heat by. It also had

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a timer and a spring to eject the toast, stopping

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burning. Instantly, restaurants wanted it, and

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within five years, the Toastmaster hit the shelves

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for consumers. It even had a knob to set the

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time, darker or lighter toast. Boom! Breakfast

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is served! So by 1930… more than one million

00:13:35.679 –> 00:13:38.879
toasters were being sold annually. Imagine if

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Marsh and Hoskins had kept it instead of focusing

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on industrial furnaces. And by 1960, toasters

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had become ubiquitous in American kitchens. Today,

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a century since Charles Stride invented the home

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appliance industry, toasters are still produced

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in his same basic design. Hang on, this is Why

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the Fork. We don’t just tell you the history

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of the product. We talk about… The social change.

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In the US and in mainland Europe, the rollout

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of electricity meant that, like the kettle, everyone

00:14:11.230 –> 00:14:15.529
had a toaster in their home, right? Right? But

00:14:15.529 –> 00:14:19.809
in the UK, it was slightly different. We had

00:14:19.809 –> 00:14:22.009
two things that made us, I don’t know, better

00:14:22.009 –> 00:14:24.389
than the rest of the world. A shed load of coal

00:14:24.389 –> 00:14:28.409
and the class system. We relied on heating with

00:14:28.409 –> 00:14:30.529
coal much longer than the rest of the world.

00:14:30.669 –> 00:14:33.799
You know, open coal fires. Great for toasting

00:14:33.799 –> 00:14:38.159
your feet. Think classic 1950s front rooms with

00:14:38.159 –> 00:14:41.480
an open coal fire, a radio tuned to the BBC and

00:14:41.480 –> 00:14:44.720
a newspaper in your hand. This is the BBC Home

00:14:44.720 –> 00:14:46.980
Service broadcasting from Broadcasting House

00:14:46.980 –> 00:14:56.580
in London. The news at seven o ‘clock. Most houses

00:14:56.580 –> 00:14:58.799
had electrical power, but not really much in

00:14:58.799 –> 00:15:01.919
the way of consumer goods. And the class system.

00:15:02.429 –> 00:15:04.789
or servants while even in middle -class houses

00:15:04.789 –> 00:15:08.190
we had domestic servitude and some extended even

00:15:08.190 –> 00:15:10.929
later with traditional housewife doing most of

00:15:10.929 –> 00:15:13.929
the domestic tasks the demand for the toaster

00:15:13.929 –> 00:15:16.549
was not there and i remember the 80s growing

00:15:16.549 –> 00:15:18.750
up and using a gas grill on the top of a belling

00:15:18.750 –> 00:15:23.210
oven to toast it was lethal i’m lucky still to

00:15:23.210 –> 00:15:26.460
have any eyebrows This hold on to coal and the

00:15:26.460 –> 00:15:28.500
reliance on housewives and servants meant that

00:15:28.500 –> 00:15:30.299
the toaster was lower down our pecking order.

00:15:30.419 –> 00:15:32.759
We wanted kettles and TVs and washing machines

00:15:32.759 –> 00:15:36.940
before investing in the toaster. But there were

00:15:36.940 –> 00:15:41.279
exceptions. Jewelit in 1952 developed a commercial

00:15:41.279 –> 00:15:44.679
six -slice toaster for cafes, even installing

00:15:44.679 –> 00:15:49.240
one on the QE2 in 1968. Or the 1947 design by

00:15:49.240 –> 00:15:51.980
Kenneth Wood for dual -side toasting. That’s

00:15:51.980 –> 00:15:54.759
the Kenwood brand. And then there’s Morphew Richards,

00:15:55.019 –> 00:15:58.440
whose 1956 dual -side pop -up toaster helped

00:15:58.440 –> 00:16:01.059
this brand become a domestic icon, and it was

00:16:01.059 –> 00:16:03.519
made in the UK until it was recently moved overseas.

00:16:04.419 –> 00:16:07.480
Because, as well as being a symbol of industrial

00:16:07.480 –> 00:16:10.539
design and representing the social class differences

00:16:10.539 –> 00:16:14.840
in the UK, the toaster captures world trade as

00:16:14.840 –> 00:16:20.100
well as a buttered scone. You might have read

00:16:20.100 –> 00:16:24.019
the poem, I Pencil. by Leonard Reed. It describes

00:16:24.019 –> 00:16:26.559
that making even something as simple as a pencil

00:16:26.559 –> 00:16:29.159
requires lots of expertise from lots of complex

00:16:29.159 –> 00:16:32.019
industries spread throughout the world. Where

00:16:32.019 –> 00:16:35.039
would you start? The wood. But what would you

00:16:35.039 –> 00:16:37.340
use to cut the wood down with? You know, who

00:16:37.340 –> 00:16:39.000
makes the axe? Where does that metal come from?

00:16:39.059 –> 00:16:45.259
Or the drill? But the toaster? Well, in 2009…

00:16:46.179 –> 00:16:48.840
Thomas Thwaites, a student at the Royal College

00:16:48.840 –> 00:16:52.100
of Arts, created one of my favourite works of

00:16:52.100 –> 00:16:58.080
art. He decided to make a toaster. And I mean

00:16:58.080 –> 00:17:01.360
make a toaster. Not just 3D print some bits.

00:17:01.539 –> 00:17:04.900
I mean make it from first principles. Like go

00:17:04.900 –> 00:17:06.859
out to the oil rigs and get some oil in a bucket.

00:17:07.059 –> 00:17:10.240
Turn it into plastic. Make the plastic. To mould

00:17:10.240 –> 00:17:12.420
the case. And make the mould. And the screws.

00:17:13.289 –> 00:17:15.490
This is an excellent TED talk if you fancy it,

00:17:15.549 –> 00:17:18.170
and I’ve even read his fascinating book. Thomas

00:17:18.170 –> 00:17:20.589
went around the country collecting copper, nickel,

00:17:20.829 –> 00:17:23.349
oil and other key elements to make each of the

00:17:23.349 –> 00:17:26.329
key components of the toaster. Marsh’s heating

00:17:26.329 –> 00:17:29.410
elements, the copper cables, aluminium to make

00:17:29.410 –> 00:17:32.130
the frame. Modelled on a three pound toaster

00:17:32.130 –> 00:17:36.549
from Argos, he was able to make, sort of, melted

00:17:36.549 –> 00:17:39.730
looking toaster. He cheated a little, smelting

00:17:39.730 –> 00:17:41.869
aluminium in a microwave and using nickel from

00:17:41.869 –> 00:17:46.839
coins. Making complex innovation is hard. Making

00:17:46.839 –> 00:17:49.700
a simple innovation cheaply so that we can all

00:17:49.700 –> 00:17:53.319
afford them in our homes is even harder. What

00:17:53.319 –> 00:17:55.839
Thomas showed in his project was that even the

00:17:55.839 –> 00:17:59.299
humble three pound toaster was just too complex

00:17:59.299 –> 00:18:02.769
to make. The materials that Thomas found Some

00:18:02.769 –> 00:18:05.529
could not be sourced in the UK, either because,

00:18:05.650 –> 00:18:07.690
like the grains for making the bread, we didn’t

00:18:07.690 –> 00:18:10.630
have them, or because the mining and extraction

00:18:10.630 –> 00:18:12.690
was no longer commercially or environmentally

00:18:12.690 –> 00:18:16.329
viable. It’s why things like global tariffs or

00:18:16.329 –> 00:18:18.410
differences in regulations between countries

00:18:18.410 –> 00:18:21.509
make it hard or impossible to offer better products

00:18:21.509 –> 00:18:27.250
for consumers. So again, where are the lasers?

00:18:27.569 –> 00:18:30.920
We can eat in so many different ways. Why are

00:18:30.920 –> 00:18:34.299
we still using Marsh’s 120 -year -old heating

00:18:34.299 –> 00:18:37.059
elements and frankly the same 100 -year -old

00:18:37.059 –> 00:18:40.819
pop -up? Surely there’s some very clever AI that

00:18:40.819 –> 00:18:43.440
can see the type of bread I pop in, measure its

00:18:43.440 –> 00:18:45.920
temperature, know that I’m bake -beaning it up

00:18:45.920 –> 00:18:48.119
and give me the right level of brownness without

00:18:48.119 –> 00:18:53.460
burning down my home. So maybe you’re a baguette

00:18:53.460 –> 00:18:56.759
guy, or fond of baps, banach or bagels, one side

00:18:56.759 –> 00:18:59.700
toasted, the other warmed, or balms or brioche,

00:18:59.819 –> 00:19:02.559
or need your buns warmed, your ciabatta, ciapattis

00:19:02.559 –> 00:19:05.000
crisped, your challah plaited, your crumpets

00:19:05.000 –> 00:19:08.619
toasted. Are you a focaccia fan? Do you cry at

00:19:08.619 –> 00:19:11.400
garlic bread or melt at hot cross buns? Do you

00:19:11.400 –> 00:19:13.680
like your malt loaves meaty, your muffins moist,

00:19:13.839 –> 00:19:16.400
your naans nice, your pans, patonis and paninis

00:19:16.400 –> 00:19:19.299
paninied, your pizza pockets popped, your pizza

00:19:19.299 –> 00:19:21.799
slices picked, your pop tarts popped, or your

00:19:21.799 –> 00:19:24.940
rotis roasted? Do you have your scones jammed

00:19:24.940 –> 00:19:27.000
or creamed or creamed and jammed? And is your

00:19:27.000 –> 00:19:29.799
sourdough risen and your tea cakes served with

00:19:29.799 –> 00:19:33.039
tiger bread? Do you waffle away or wrap it up

00:19:33.039 –> 00:19:36.660
with Zoffed or Zweibach? The toaster has done

00:19:36.660 –> 00:19:40.059
for bread what the kettle has for tea and transformed

00:19:40.059 –> 00:19:43.640
our lives, extended the use of food, creating

00:19:43.640 –> 00:19:46.680
culinary design or just baked beans on toast,

00:19:46.839 –> 00:19:50.869
but it brings complex chemistry. delightful design

00:19:50.869 –> 00:19:54.730
and captures the global supply chain that enabled

00:19:54.730 –> 00:19:58.650
social change and all from your kitchen worktop.

00:19:59.029 –> 00:20:09.609
And that’s why the toaster. Now let’s talk more

00:20:09.609 –> 00:20:11.910
about the toaster with our design expert, Phil

00:20:11.910 –> 00:20:14.849
Staunton from D2N Product Design. Hello, Phil.

00:20:14.950 –> 00:20:18.019
Hi, Ben. How are you, mate? Yeah, not too bad,

00:20:18.059 –> 00:20:20.680
thank you. Looking forward to this. Are you a

00:20:20.680 –> 00:20:22.400
little bit peckish after listening to me talk

00:20:22.400 –> 00:20:25.400
to you about toast for 30 minutes? I am a little

00:20:25.400 –> 00:20:27.380
bit peckish, particularly your descriptions of

00:20:27.380 –> 00:20:29.880
how the Maynard reaction is similar to when you’re

00:20:29.880 –> 00:20:32.240
cooking steak or roasted vegetables. I also have

00:20:32.240 –> 00:20:34.299
an incredible toaster story that only happened

00:20:34.299 –> 00:20:36.640
this morning in my household. Oh, you have to

00:20:36.640 –> 00:20:39.160
tell us, you have to tell us. So I got in the

00:20:39.160 –> 00:20:41.480
shower and then the smoke alarm went off and

00:20:41.480 –> 00:20:44.160
I was like, oh, what is going on? I’ve got three

00:20:44.160 –> 00:20:45.700
teenage boys, obviously kind of one of them had

00:20:45.700 –> 00:20:47.559
gone downstairs. And they’re always hungry. You

00:20:47.559 –> 00:20:49.819
know what teenage boys are like. And the whole

00:20:49.819 –> 00:20:52.180
house smelt of burning wood. And I was like,

00:20:52.279 –> 00:20:56.220
oh, this is bigger than I thought. And he’d gone

00:20:56.220 –> 00:20:58.240
downstairs, put some toast in. We got a four

00:20:58.240 –> 00:21:00.480
-slot toaster because of the three teenage boys.

00:21:00.779 –> 00:21:04.140
He’d left the toaster tongs in the last two slots.

00:21:04.519 –> 00:21:07.059
It’s normally on two rather than four, but my

00:21:07.059 –> 00:21:09.980
wife had put it on four last night and set the

00:21:09.980 –> 00:21:13.240
toaster tongs on fire. Oh, my God. They were

00:21:13.240 –> 00:21:16.829
charred and black in the sink. We now need a

00:21:16.829 –> 00:21:20.049
teenage -proof toaster. It needs to survive three

00:21:20.049 –> 00:21:23.670
teenage boys. It needs to prevent toasted forks

00:21:23.670 –> 00:21:25.940
being shoved in. Yeah, there’s quite a lot of

00:21:25.940 –> 00:21:27.819
house fires each year that are caused by toasters.

00:21:27.980 –> 00:21:30.839
And my thought was, this is not a cheap toaster.

00:21:31.000 –> 00:21:32.900
There’s still nothing in it that has detected

00:21:32.900 –> 00:21:35.700
the fact that there’s something on fire and has

00:21:35.700 –> 00:21:38.759
turned it off or whatever else. And I was like,

00:21:38.799 –> 00:21:42.960
actually, it’s not brilliant design. But it really

00:21:42.960 –> 00:21:45.579
shows that this product’s been around for 120

00:21:45.579 –> 00:21:48.970
years. Yeah. 1 ,500 house fires a year in the

00:21:48.970 –> 00:21:52.390
UK caused by toasters. And why haven’t we innovated

00:21:52.390 –> 00:21:54.190
it? And I think this is a question we keep asking

00:21:54.190 –> 00:21:56.250
in this series. Why are these beautiful little

00:21:56.250 –> 00:21:59.410
innovations not being updated? Why is there no

00:21:59.410 –> 00:22:01.369
lasers on toast? Yeah, and I think that’s the

00:22:01.369 –> 00:22:03.470
biggest difference, maybe, to the previous stories.

00:22:03.980 –> 00:22:05.839
The toaster was actually developed a lot sooner

00:22:05.839 –> 00:22:07.400
than maybe the hair straighteners or any of the

00:22:07.400 –> 00:22:08.579
other stuff that we’re talking about, right?

00:22:08.660 –> 00:22:11.000
So there’s been, as you say, 130 years where

00:22:11.000 –> 00:22:13.119
we could have solved the problems. But inevitably,

00:22:13.420 –> 00:22:14.779
you talk to someone about a toaster and they

00:22:14.779 –> 00:22:17.619
go, well, I quite like farmhouse loaves and they

00:22:17.619 –> 00:22:19.299
always stick out the top and the top bit doesn’t

00:22:19.299 –> 00:22:20.839
get toasted. I have to turn them over. Yeah,

00:22:20.880 –> 00:22:22.740
why is that? Well, someone is like, I don’t understand

00:22:22.740 –> 00:22:25.019
why it doesn’t pop the toast out enough that

00:22:25.019 –> 00:22:27.000
I don’t have to have another product, the toaster

00:22:27.000 –> 00:22:31.059
tongs, or a knife stuck in the top. Don’t do

00:22:31.059 –> 00:22:32.700
that. Turn the toaster off first, obviously.

00:22:33.259 –> 00:22:34.980
And they’re never browned evenly. I was looking

00:22:34.980 –> 00:22:37.359
at toasters on John Lewis before this and there

00:22:37.359 –> 00:22:39.259
were loads of them on there and some of them

00:22:39.259 –> 00:22:40.700
were pretty expensive, but it’s all about the

00:22:40.700 –> 00:22:43.359
design, the finish, the brand. It’s not about

00:22:43.359 –> 00:22:46.059
the fact it’s safer or whatever else. And even

00:22:46.059 –> 00:22:48.559
if they claim something like even browning, you

00:22:48.559 –> 00:22:50.119
look at the picture and you’re like, that piece

00:22:50.119 –> 00:22:53.220
of bread is not evenly browned. It’s still darker

00:22:53.220 –> 00:22:55.019
at the top and there’s still lines or whatever

00:22:55.019 –> 00:22:57.460
else. And it’s really rare to see a product.

00:22:57.880 –> 00:23:00.559
in the market and for so long which has so many

00:23:00.559 –> 00:23:02.519
deficiencies you know it can’t do small pancakes

00:23:02.519 –> 00:23:05.740
and big farmhouse you know the bagel thing you

00:23:05.740 –> 00:23:07.319
know yeah that’s great does one side not the

00:23:07.319 –> 00:23:10.640
other but like if i have frozen bread it doesn’t

00:23:10.640 –> 00:23:13.579
recognize it like if you look at this for what’s

00:23:13.579 –> 00:23:15.660
happened with air fries so that’s totally transformed

00:23:15.660 –> 00:23:17.799
you know and there’s so many functions and features

00:23:17.799 –> 00:23:20.799
on there yet the humble three pound toaster is

00:23:20.799 –> 00:23:24.779
still fundamentally the same as it was like 100

00:23:24.779 –> 00:23:27.160
years ago what came first sliced bread or the

00:23:27.160 –> 00:23:28.900
toaster was sort of the one of the questions

00:23:28.900 –> 00:23:31.640
how much did you need to have sliced bread to

00:23:31.640 –> 00:23:34.099
make the toaster wanted and how much do you think

00:23:34.099 –> 00:23:36.700
having the toaster sort of influenced the need

00:23:36.700 –> 00:23:40.519
for sliced bread Yeah, I think that the toaster

00:23:40.519 –> 00:23:43.660
is perfectly acceptable and needed without sliced

00:23:43.660 –> 00:23:45.779
bread because you just slice the bread and put

00:23:45.779 –> 00:23:47.579
it in the toaster. It’s still saving you a whole

00:23:47.579 –> 00:23:50.319
lot of hassle, right? And it’s still meaning

00:23:50.319 –> 00:23:52.240
that both sides are toasted at the same time.

00:23:52.240 –> 00:23:53.599
You’re not having to flip it over and all that.

00:23:53.720 –> 00:23:55.480
So I think there’s enough of an advantage there

00:23:55.480 –> 00:23:58.339
for the toaster to be an acceptable product without.

00:23:58.539 –> 00:23:59.960
And I think we saw from your story at the end

00:23:59.960 –> 00:24:01.559
of the day it was invented before sliced bread

00:24:01.559 –> 00:24:04.519
was invented. And actually the take -up, even

00:24:04.519 –> 00:24:06.460
not in this country, but the take -up was really

00:24:06.460 –> 00:24:09.839
fast in the US. where it was invented you know

00:24:09.839 –> 00:24:13.180
without the sliced bread thing so yeah I think

00:24:13.180 –> 00:24:15.559
it’s very much kind of toaster first and toaster

00:24:15.950 –> 00:24:19.289
would exist with or without bread and cream slots.

00:24:19.470 –> 00:24:22.089
I think it’s often with designs as well. You

00:24:22.089 –> 00:24:24.910
have that, oh, there’s no market for this, therefore

00:24:24.910 –> 00:24:27.529
no one wants it, and so we don’t do it. Or a

00:24:27.529 –> 00:24:29.250
product that comes in and suddenly creates the

00:24:29.250 –> 00:24:31.430
market and suddenly changes people’s behaviour.

00:24:31.710 –> 00:24:34.369
I imagine you always want to be the latter, but

00:24:34.369 –> 00:24:36.549
it’s hard to do that. It’s hard to persuade people

00:24:36.549 –> 00:24:39.230
to invest their time and effort to make those

00:24:39.230 –> 00:24:41.369
kind of products happen, I think. Yeah, definitely.

00:24:41.650 –> 00:24:43.569
And we see it with investors all the time as

00:24:43.569 –> 00:24:47.019
well. always concerned about how easy is it to

00:24:47.019 –> 00:24:48.819
make or what the cost is going to be or anything

00:24:48.819 –> 00:24:50.539
else is you know is there enough of a market

00:24:50.539 –> 00:24:53.259
for it um and can we really justify it and how

00:24:53.259 –> 00:24:55.660
much of that isn’t an addressable market is a

00:24:55.660 –> 00:24:58.180
critical question we have lots of clients who

00:24:58.180 –> 00:25:01.059
go well there’s 60 million people in the uk everyone’s

00:25:01.059 –> 00:25:02.819
gonna want one of these it’s like yeah but you

00:25:02.819 –> 00:25:05.359
can’t get it in front of 60 million people you

00:25:05.359 –> 00:25:07.140
know how many people can you actually get it

00:25:07.140 –> 00:25:08.960
in front of you know that’s your addressable

00:25:08.960 –> 00:25:11.599
market not just your overall market plus no one

00:25:11.599 –> 00:25:14.059
so even if you come up with a new toaster how

00:25:14.059 –> 00:25:15.619
do you get it to them and we saw that in our

00:25:15.619 –> 00:25:16.960
other stories actually quite a lot you know with

00:25:16.960 –> 00:25:18.339
the hair straightening so we saw that quite hard

00:25:18.339 –> 00:25:20.960
to kind of get those first people over what let’s

00:25:20.960 –> 00:25:23.180
talk about design so we didn’t talk a lot in

00:25:23.180 –> 00:25:25.220
the story about the shape and form of modern

00:25:25.220 –> 00:25:27.819
toasters what makes a great domestic product

00:25:27.819 –> 00:25:29.200
and what are the things you need to consider

00:25:29.200 –> 00:25:31.039
or you look at when you’re doing the aesthetic

00:25:31.039 –> 00:25:35.359
design or human design of a of a question so

00:25:35.359 –> 00:25:38.259
nowadays what really makes a difference is it’s

00:25:38.259 –> 00:25:41.440
got to look good in a photo on a website and

00:25:41.440 –> 00:25:44.480
it’s got to stand out enough against the competitors

00:25:44.480 –> 00:25:47.700
on like a John Lewis kind of e -com website without

00:25:47.700 –> 00:25:49.299
looking like something that people go, I don’t

00:25:49.299 –> 00:25:51.480
want that in my home or that’s too weird or whatever

00:25:51.480 –> 00:25:54.440
else. So there’s this, and I got it completely

00:25:54.440 –> 00:25:55.980
wrong with our pushchair that we launched. It

00:25:55.980 –> 00:25:58.440
looked too much like every other pushchair. So

00:25:58.440 –> 00:26:01.119
no one kind of stopped, whether that’s scrolling

00:26:01.119 –> 00:26:03.400
or in the store and went, oh, that’s interesting.

00:26:03.819 –> 00:26:05.579
And I think that’s one of the things that Dyson

00:26:05.579 –> 00:26:08.119
got right with his vacuum cleaner is everyone

00:26:08.119 –> 00:26:11.019
went, oh, that does not look like a Hoover. That

00:26:11.019 –> 00:26:12.460
doesn’t look like anything I’ve seen before.

00:26:12.579 –> 00:26:14.900
And they stopped and went, okay, why is that

00:26:14.900 –> 00:26:17.539
different? And then you suddenly got 10 seconds

00:26:17.539 –> 00:26:20.119
to describe why it’s different, why it’s better,

00:26:20.220 –> 00:26:23.440
why they want it, as opposed to like 0 .3 seconds

00:26:23.440 –> 00:26:24.940
or whatever the average is that someone will

00:26:24.940 –> 00:26:26.720
kind of scan something on a supermarket shelf

00:26:26.720 –> 00:26:32.660
or on a website. So from a commercial… perspective

00:26:32.660 –> 00:26:35.400
that’s the the power of the aesthetic of the

00:26:35.400 –> 00:26:37.740
product is is that it looks good enough that

00:26:37.740 –> 00:26:40.000
people go okay i’m going to click on that one

00:26:40.000 –> 00:26:42.000
and find out a bit more about it let’s talk supply

00:26:42.000 –> 00:26:44.900
chain so i i i’m a big fan of thomas freight’s

00:26:44.900 –> 00:26:47.480
work you know the toaster project and not many

00:26:47.480 –> 00:26:50.000
projects you talk about still talk about your

00:26:50.000 –> 00:26:52.940
student project about it kind of illustrated

00:26:52.940 –> 00:26:55.839
the poem i pencil where it’s so difficult to

00:26:55.839 –> 00:26:58.180
make something new and modern as designers and

00:26:58.180 –> 00:27:00.940
engineers how difficult it is to get something

00:27:00.940 –> 00:27:02.960
made. You’re like, what’s the challenges? You

00:27:02.960 –> 00:27:04.299
know, why can’t I just, you know, make it hosted

00:27:04.299 –> 00:27:06.299
locally in the UK anymore or, you know, in Corley

00:27:06.299 –> 00:27:09.960
again? Yeah, indeed. Yeah, it’s fascinating,

00:27:09.980 –> 00:27:11.960
isn’t it? And I think from Thomas’s book and

00:27:11.960 –> 00:27:14.799
that kind of original premise of if you were

00:27:14.799 –> 00:27:16.940
dropped into an alien world, even though you

00:27:16.940 –> 00:27:18.920
knew exactly what a toaster was and as a designer

00:27:18.920 –> 00:27:21.180
how it works and everything else, could you recreate

00:27:21.180 –> 00:27:24.680
it on that alien world and how hard it is? And

00:27:24.680 –> 00:27:27.680
it is remarkable how difficult it is and how

00:27:27.680 –> 00:27:30.660
much interconnected, really kind of state -of

00:27:30.660 –> 00:27:32.839
-the -art industry you need just to be able to

00:27:32.839 –> 00:27:35.279
produce something that seems relatively straightforward

00:27:35.279 –> 00:27:38.400
like the toaster. And at low cost as well. And

00:27:38.400 –> 00:27:39.920
at low cost. Like you can make one. I can’t believe

00:27:39.920 –> 00:27:43.200
the cost. You can buy a tester for a fine. How

00:27:43.200 –> 00:27:46.400
can you do that? It’s really hard. And I think

00:27:46.400 –> 00:27:48.259
we talked about this in our previous episodes

00:27:48.259 –> 00:27:50.099
that the price that consumers are willing to

00:27:50.099 –> 00:27:52.660
pay for the innovation is quite low. Yet to have

00:27:52.660 –> 00:27:55.099
a step change innovation, you know, that’s really

00:27:55.099 –> 00:27:58.319
expensive. Why is that the case? So I think the

00:27:58.319 –> 00:28:00.299
issue really is that people are really used to

00:28:00.299 –> 00:28:05.380
paying rock bottom prices for consumer. So if

00:28:05.380 –> 00:28:06.740
you look at something like a kettle or a toaster

00:28:06.740 –> 00:28:10.480
or whatever else, they are available really at

00:28:10.480 –> 00:28:12.619
a very, very good price. And that’s because they’re

00:28:12.619 –> 00:28:15.200
being made in the millions in the Far East and

00:28:15.200 –> 00:28:17.180
then shipped around the world. That’s why the

00:28:17.180 –> 00:28:19.099
instruction manual appears. It’s got 17 different

00:28:19.099 –> 00:28:21.000
languages in it. And that’s how they’ve got that

00:28:21.000 –> 00:28:23.759
price really, really low. But the problem then

00:28:23.759 –> 00:28:26.299
is for anyone coming in with something new, you

00:28:26.299 –> 00:28:28.819
can’t produce it in millions because you don’t

00:28:28.819 –> 00:28:30.480
know what the adoption of it is going to be.

00:28:30.599 –> 00:28:33.680
And very few people are prepared to pay for millions.

00:28:33.740 –> 00:28:35.779
of a new product to sit in a warehouse you know

00:28:35.779 –> 00:28:37.880
on the basis that it might sell and in which

00:28:37.880 –> 00:28:41.940
case you’re maybe kind of making 3000 but at

00:28:41.940 –> 00:28:44.000
that point your price is just so much higher

00:28:44.000 –> 00:28:46.180
and you can’t go into robotic production you

00:28:46.180 –> 00:28:48.500
can’t have massive kind of mold tools that are

00:28:48.500 –> 00:28:50.700
making eight in one go or any of that kind of

00:28:50.700 –> 00:28:52.339
thing and that just means it’s really really

00:28:52.339 –> 00:28:54.059
difficult to get that new innovation to market

00:28:54.059 –> 00:28:55.920
just because people’s expectations of what they’re

00:28:55.920 –> 00:28:59.240
going to pay are crazily low and that’s one of

00:28:59.240 –> 00:29:00.720
the reasons i think the toaster just doesn’t

00:29:00.720 –> 00:29:03.259
work very well is because to make it work really

00:29:03.259 –> 00:29:05.160
well you’d have to have really high quality ceramic

00:29:05.160 –> 00:29:07.819
heating elements and much better materials and

00:29:07.819 –> 00:29:09.880
all this kind of stuff and you know that would

00:29:09.880 –> 00:29:11.559
probably be seven eight hundred pounds for the

00:29:11.559 –> 00:29:13.019
product and then everyone’s going to go well

00:29:13.019 –> 00:29:14.180
no one’s going to buy that they’re just going

00:29:14.180 –> 00:29:16.440
to stick with their you know 100 quid toaster

00:29:16.440 –> 00:29:18.779
what we’ve learned on these podcasts is isn’t

00:29:18.779 –> 00:29:21.079
just about the history of our designs like it’s

00:29:21.079 –> 00:29:23.059
always about the interesting story about the

00:29:23.059 –> 00:29:26.450
people or the The social change, and that’s the

00:29:26.450 –> 00:29:28.089
stuff that takes a long time to research and

00:29:28.089 –> 00:29:30.930
write about. And no one else has done it. Like,

00:29:30.950 –> 00:29:33.670
you know, there’s great science stuff out there,

00:29:33.730 –> 00:29:36.390
but there isn’t a why on earth did it take so

00:29:36.390 –> 00:29:38.890
long for the toaster to take off in the UK. And

00:29:38.890 –> 00:29:42.640
I think as designers, we… that’s a bit that

00:29:42.640 –> 00:29:44.279
we’re interested in isn’t it phil yeah i think

00:29:44.279 –> 00:29:46.720
so and obviously i’ve kind of read up on the

00:29:46.720 –> 00:29:48.619
history of some of the stuff that we’ve been

00:29:48.619 –> 00:29:51.980
talking about and and interestingly none of the

00:29:51.980 –> 00:29:53.740
really interesting bits that you get into can

00:29:53.740 –> 00:29:56.059
you find on like a website that talks to the

00:29:56.059 –> 00:29:58.099
history of the toaster or wikipedia or anything

00:29:58.099 –> 00:30:01.140
else but as you say digging into that researching

00:30:01.140 –> 00:30:03.859
that and and also ensuring that that isn’t just

00:30:03.859 –> 00:30:05.680
made up by someone who’s kind of trying to…

00:30:05.680 –> 00:30:08.480
Some students in Scotland. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:30:08.559 –> 00:30:10.940
Having a laugh is really difficult. It’s really

00:30:10.940 –> 00:30:14.039
hard. And as inventors, you study how people

00:30:14.039 –> 00:30:15.900
behave and you watch it. And all that kind of

00:30:15.900 –> 00:30:18.819
stuff tends to happen in private. See, it’s protected,

00:30:19.000 –> 00:30:20.940
you know, by GDPR. And obviously, when you invent

00:30:20.940 –> 00:30:23.420
something, you can’t talk about it. So the inventor

00:30:23.420 –> 00:30:25.640
set, the bit that you and I spend all the time

00:30:25.640 –> 00:30:28.539
with our customers on, that interesting bit is

00:30:28.539 –> 00:30:31.599
a bit that… isn’t in the public and i think

00:30:31.599 –> 00:30:33.940
also the thing is when it’s then in hindsight

00:30:33.940 –> 00:30:35.900
you don’t tend to write about it because you’ve

00:30:35.900 –> 00:30:37.500
moved on to the next invention or you’re selling

00:30:37.500 –> 00:30:39.400
the current invention or whatever it is so you

00:30:39.400 –> 00:30:41.720
don’t go back to take the time to explain you

00:30:41.720 –> 00:30:43.680
know where it came from and why and put that

00:30:43.680 –> 00:30:46.440
then in the public domain so it is you know harder

00:30:46.440 –> 00:30:49.119
to find i guess and get to that kind of you know

00:30:49.119 –> 00:30:51.680
detailed information that is really interesting

00:30:51.680 –> 00:30:54.380
so where as a designer then where do your ideas

00:30:54.380 –> 00:30:56.140
come from do they just pop into your head like

00:30:56.140 –> 00:30:58.579
a bit of you know burnt taste or you know is

00:30:58.640 –> 00:31:00.839
it lots of synthesizing do you find that you

00:31:00.839 –> 00:31:03.240
do you go for a run or what what’s your what’s

00:31:03.240 –> 00:31:06.119
your method my ideas i find often come when i’m

00:31:06.119 –> 00:31:09.000
not thinking about it so if i go into a room

00:31:09.000 –> 00:31:11.359
at work with a pen and a piece of paper and go

00:31:11.359 –> 00:31:13.079
right i’m going to come up with an idea for this

00:31:13.079 –> 00:31:15.480
you know sometimes that works sometimes it doesn’t

00:31:15.900 –> 00:31:17.599
the innovation sessions that we run with our

00:31:17.599 –> 00:31:20.200
clients are much better for that because you’re

00:31:20.200 –> 00:31:21.740
bouncing off other people and people kind of

00:31:21.740 –> 00:31:23.859
bring in new things and that kind of spurs thinking.

00:31:24.380 –> 00:31:29.480
We have an incredible environment. fostering

00:31:29.480 –> 00:31:31.019
new thinking and ideas and innovation because

00:31:31.019 –> 00:31:32.880
we’re dealing with you know 70 or 80 projects

00:31:32.880 –> 00:31:35.339
at any one time we’re exposed to new materials

00:31:35.339 –> 00:31:37.640
new production methods new technologies all the

00:31:37.640 –> 00:31:40.240
time and that just creates this kind of hotbed

00:31:40.240 –> 00:31:42.799
of innovation really which is fantastic but you

00:31:42.799 –> 00:31:44.200
know nevertheless it’ll still be when i’m lying

00:31:44.200 –> 00:31:46.440
in bed at night or when i’m you know in the shower

00:31:46.440 –> 00:31:48.900
or you’re cycling to work about to get run over

00:31:48.900 –> 00:31:50.619
by some motorist that doesn’t seem to be able

00:31:50.619 –> 00:31:53.299
to see a cyclist you know but suddenly i’ll be

00:31:53.299 –> 00:31:55.180
like oh yeah you know we could use that that

00:31:55.180 –> 00:31:57.339
would work in that scenario or whatever else

00:31:57.339 –> 00:32:00.940
so yeah i think That’s unexpected times. In our

00:32:00.940 –> 00:32:02.900
first episode when we interviewed Rob, one of

00:32:02.900 –> 00:32:04.839
the things he said is he was thinking about kitchen

00:32:04.839 –> 00:32:07.680
tongs on a long drive. And he spent the whole

00:32:07.680 –> 00:32:09.059
drive just thinking about kitchen tongs. And

00:32:09.059 –> 00:32:11.019
I think the same. I go out on my bike and it’s

00:32:11.019 –> 00:32:14.039
that processing is very important. In our story,

00:32:14.099 –> 00:32:17.180
I love that Marsh and Hoskins, they couldn’t,

00:32:17.180 –> 00:32:20.180
they weren’t allowed to patent. their idea about

00:32:20.180 –> 00:32:22.420
the Nikon world together. They were told only

00:32:22.420 –> 00:32:24.619
one person could have an idea. And I’m intrigued

00:32:24.619 –> 00:32:28.480
by your experience. Yeah, and clearly kind of

00:32:28.480 –> 00:32:30.000
some of the people who come to us have had an

00:32:30.000 –> 00:32:32.359
idea on their own and they’ve come up with it

00:32:32.359 –> 00:32:35.599
entirely kind of independently. I’m surprised

00:32:35.599 –> 00:32:37.640
at how many times someone else has come up with

00:32:37.640 –> 00:32:38.799
that idea on the other side of the world and

00:32:38.799 –> 00:32:40.680
already patented it six months earlier or whatever.

00:32:40.839 –> 00:32:44.299
And we see that a lot. When we developed our

00:32:44.299 –> 00:32:46.539
own pushchair product that then went on to launch

00:32:46.539 –> 00:32:48.869
with John Lewis, when we came to file, the patent

00:32:48.869 –> 00:32:51.450
I listed my whole design team on the pump it

00:32:51.450 –> 00:32:52.970
was like eight people on it because I was like

00:32:52.970 –> 00:32:55.869
yeah I may have come up with in a meeting the

00:32:55.869 –> 00:32:58.130
idea for the I don’t know the cooling carry cot

00:32:58.130 –> 00:32:59.809
with the airflow through it to keep the baby

00:32:59.809 –> 00:33:01.970
at the right temperature but would I have done

00:33:01.970 –> 00:33:04.630
without the other seven of you going oh we could

00:33:04.630 –> 00:33:07.369
try this or what about this or the research that

00:33:07.369 –> 00:33:09.910
they’d done and you know on that product I guess

00:33:09.910 –> 00:33:12.009
it’s a bit easier because there were five separate

00:33:12.009 –> 00:33:13.829
independent claims within the patent so there

00:33:13.829 –> 00:33:15.950
was lots of different innovation within it but

00:33:15.950 –> 00:33:17.609
you know even if someone hadn’t specifically

00:33:17.799 –> 00:33:20.759
said in a meeting oh this is a new idea i’ve

00:33:20.759 –> 00:33:23.079
come up with i you know i still you wouldn’t

00:33:23.079 –> 00:33:24.799
know you wouldn’t know who who wrote that whose

00:33:24.799 –> 00:33:26.779
post -it note is this that’s got this idea and

00:33:26.779 –> 00:33:28.440
i think that’s anything some of the projects

00:33:28.440 –> 00:33:30.700
i’ve been online i’ve had 250 people know what

00:33:30.700 –> 00:33:32.940
was it was it the consumer you were talking to

00:33:32.940 –> 00:33:35.700
or the or the designer or engineer that kind

00:33:35.700 –> 00:33:37.859
of said something that gave you that nugget and

00:33:37.859 –> 00:33:40.740
and it really is a collaborative experience i

00:33:40.740 –> 00:33:42.680
think with with design and engineering so i feel

00:33:42.680 –> 00:33:45.799
very sorry for hoskins he should have been named

00:33:45.799 –> 00:33:48.880
as as one of the inventors yeah I also find it

00:33:48.880 –> 00:33:51.099
really interesting when a client comes to us

00:33:51.099 –> 00:33:53.319
with a problem and goes I’ve come up with an

00:33:53.319 –> 00:33:56.160
idea I need to get a patent it’s like no no you’ve

00:33:56.160 –> 00:33:58.640
just identified a problem it isn’t the same thing

00:33:58.640 –> 00:34:01.839
you can’t go and patent the fact that cyclists

00:34:01.839 –> 00:34:04.339
don’t get seen at night and you want us to come

00:34:04.339 –> 00:34:06.599
up with an idea for that it’s like we could do

00:34:06.599 –> 00:34:08.820
that and you know you can go and patent the idea

00:34:08.820 –> 00:34:12.360
if you pay us that’s fine but you know it isn’t

00:34:12.360 –> 00:34:13.860
the same thing and actually many ideas we don’t

00:34:13.860 –> 00:34:16.019
patent like I think I think like the majority

00:34:16.230 –> 00:34:18.030
the innovations i’ve worked on we haven’t got

00:34:18.030 –> 00:34:20.030
patents for they’re great for slowing things

00:34:20.030 –> 00:34:21.230
down and particularly if you’ve got great new

00:34:21.230 –> 00:34:23.610
technology they’re great but often they are design

00:34:23.610 –> 00:34:28.400
improvements and don’t need it So this feels

00:34:28.400 –> 00:34:30.380
like the perfect opportunity to talk about the

00:34:30.380 –> 00:34:33.119
future of the toaster with our next guest and

00:34:33.119 –> 00:34:36.480
introduce Paul Brown. Hello, Paul. Hello. Nice

00:34:36.480 –> 00:34:39.079
to be here. Welcome to the show. Paul, can you

00:34:39.079 –> 00:34:40.900
tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

00:34:41.260 –> 00:34:43.900
Yes. Hello. I’m an industrial designer by training.

00:34:44.039 –> 00:34:46.460
I run a design consultancy called Innovation

00:34:46.460 –> 00:34:49.519
and Design, and I run a couple of other companies.

00:34:49.539 –> 00:34:53.119
One’s called Be Better. creating neoprene baby

00:34:53.119 –> 00:34:55.940
bibs with my wife, the famous bib called the

00:34:55.940 –> 00:35:00.059
Ultra Bib. And I also work with a colleague,

00:35:00.159 –> 00:35:03.000
a company called Needledock, and we were manufacturing

00:35:03.000 –> 00:35:06.239
solid board medical sharps bins to try and save

00:35:06.239 –> 00:35:09.539
the world from burning so much plastic. Oh, wow,

00:35:09.679 –> 00:35:11.840
that’s fantastic. Oh, I love whenever I talk

00:35:11.840 –> 00:35:13.780
to a designer, whenever we kind of look through

00:35:13.780 –> 00:35:16.210
the history of design. you’re always doing lots

00:35:16.210 –> 00:35:18.469
of different things. You’re never satisfied with

00:35:18.469 –> 00:35:20.929
just one design. You want to do lots of different

00:35:20.929 –> 00:35:23.789
things. I think that is a problem with industrial

00:35:23.789 –> 00:35:25.769
designers. We’re a bit of a pain in the arse.

00:35:25.789 –> 00:35:28.070
We’re never happy with anything. We criticise

00:35:28.070 –> 00:35:31.289
every single product. We have not very good people

00:35:31.289 –> 00:35:33.050
to go around the shop with. We just criticise

00:35:33.050 –> 00:35:34.730
everything and try and make it better all the

00:35:34.730 –> 00:35:37.829
time. How big is the Toaster market worth? Is

00:35:37.829 –> 00:35:40.130
it the size of the car industry? I don’t know.

00:35:40.170 –> 00:35:43.440
How big is it? I was quite surprised. I’ve just

00:35:43.440 –> 00:35:46.340
found some numbers and I’m not exactly sure if

00:35:46.340 –> 00:35:48.480
these are completely true, but at the moment

00:35:48.480 –> 00:35:52.920
we’re talking 4 .6 billion US dollars. That’s

00:35:52.920 –> 00:35:55.400
a lot of toasters. And the forecast, because

00:35:55.400 –> 00:35:58.260
of the way the massive global growth, particularly

00:35:58.260 –> 00:36:00.559
in Asia Pacific market, and they quite enjoy

00:36:00.559 –> 00:36:03.639
westernized breakfasts, apparently it’s going

00:36:03.639 –> 00:36:08.539
up to 7 billion pounds worth of, this is just

00:36:08.539 –> 00:36:13.050
toasters globally. So it is quite a serious industry.

00:36:13.750 –> 00:36:16.190
And that growth rate is definitely worth someone

00:36:16.190 –> 00:36:19.130
going after. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. This

00:36:19.130 –> 00:36:21.670
feels like if you can do it with hair straighteners,

00:36:21.670 –> 00:36:24.070
you can do it with toasters as an agent. And

00:36:24.070 –> 00:36:26.429
typically, you know, I design products for Chinese

00:36:26.429 –> 00:36:29.989
and Indonesian things. They’re very sophisticated

00:36:29.989 –> 00:36:32.010
in their design style based on their aesthetics

00:36:32.010 –> 00:36:36.090
and technology. Like if you could make a Huahe

00:36:36.090 –> 00:36:41.039
style super toaster. to perfectly cook western

00:36:41.039 –> 00:36:43.940
style breads i mean that would be that would

00:36:43.940 –> 00:36:46.780
go down well wouldn’t it yeah absolutely i think

00:36:46.780 –> 00:36:48.380
we know what we’re doing in the pub later gentlemen

00:36:48.380 –> 00:36:52.519
i think yes i see another company for you paul

00:36:52.519 –> 00:36:56.940
but the real reason we pulled you on the show

00:36:56.940 –> 00:36:59.820
to talk about the toaster because i hear you’ve

00:36:59.820 –> 00:37:02.300
invented a new one it was a while ago now though

00:37:02.300 –> 00:37:03.960
so i’ll just look at the dates i think it was

00:37:03.960 –> 00:37:07.260
about 25 years ago i’d moved house and i had

00:37:07.260 –> 00:37:10.019
a smoke alarm Just I was about to screw on the

00:37:10.019 –> 00:37:11.920
ceiling and I just had this sort of eureka moment.

00:37:12.059 –> 00:37:14.320
Again, annoyed industrial designer wanted to

00:37:14.320 –> 00:37:16.480
make products better. I thought, why wouldn’t

00:37:16.480 –> 00:37:20.579
a smoke alarm work as sensing smoke coming off

00:37:20.579 –> 00:37:22.780
a toaster and just switch the thing off? So I

00:37:22.780 –> 00:37:25.099
literally just I held a smoke detector above

00:37:25.099 –> 00:37:28.659
the toaster and something happened that I didn’t

00:37:28.659 –> 00:37:30.119
expect. Actually, it worked better than that.

00:37:30.199 –> 00:37:33.900
It worked out. They don’t just sense smoke. They

00:37:33.900 –> 00:37:36.659
sense basically the Maillard caramelization process.

00:37:37.400 –> 00:37:39.280
And I just thought, oh, my God, this is actually

00:37:39.280 –> 00:37:41.880
miles better than I was expecting. And cut long

00:37:41.880 –> 00:37:44.579
story short, I hired an electronics designer

00:37:44.579 –> 00:37:47.500
and built a prototype, worked out what was going

00:37:47.500 –> 00:37:51.039
on with the sensor. And, yeah, it was pretty

00:37:51.039 –> 00:37:53.440
surprising that no one had told of this. I managed

00:37:53.440 –> 00:37:56.400
to patent it. And, yeah, it’s basically using

00:37:56.400 –> 00:38:00.340
what’s called an americium. uh ionizing particle

00:38:00.340 –> 00:38:03.079
sensor which is what is in most smoke alarms

00:38:03.079 –> 00:38:05.619
in your ceiling on your house that’s the black

00:38:05.619 –> 00:38:07.519
thing that when you open to change the batteries

00:38:07.519 –> 00:38:11.820
you can see with the little um little metal canister

00:38:11.820 –> 00:38:14.900
and that’s inside that is a little tiny pellet

00:38:14.900 –> 00:38:17.559
of it is radioactive but it’s like it’s literally

00:38:17.559 –> 00:38:19.699
it’s only alpha particles and all it’s doing

00:38:19.699 –> 00:38:22.619
is just ionizing the air very very lightly i

00:38:22.619 –> 00:38:24.480
mean it won’t even We’re talking radiation. It

00:38:24.480 –> 00:38:26.079
won’t even go through a piece of paper. We’re

00:38:26.079 –> 00:38:28.199
talking that weak, you know. But the ionisation,

00:38:28.420 –> 00:38:32.000
it creates enough of a current through the air

00:38:32.000 –> 00:38:33.980
to go between a positive and a negative plate.

00:38:34.380 –> 00:38:37.099
And when smoke or other particles go through

00:38:37.099 –> 00:38:40.539
that path, it disrupts the path. And that’s a

00:38:40.539 –> 00:38:42.920
measurable drop in the current, the voltage.

00:38:43.139 –> 00:38:46.650
And I worked out that we could use that. to control

00:38:46.650 –> 00:38:48.690
the brownness of toast. Wow. Like perfectly.

00:38:48.809 –> 00:38:51.889
It worked absolutely like way beyond what I was

00:38:51.889 –> 00:38:55.250
expecting. So if my toaster had had one of these

00:38:55.250 –> 00:38:57.170
this morning, would my children not have been

00:38:57.170 –> 00:38:59.730
able to set the toaster tongs on fire to the

00:38:59.730 –> 00:39:01.329
point where they’re now black and in the sink?

00:39:01.869 –> 00:39:05.769
Yeah. So this one, to give you an example, there’s

00:39:05.769 –> 00:39:07.769
so many different types of bread out there. I

00:39:07.769 –> 00:39:09.809
found the one that takes the least amount of

00:39:09.809 –> 00:39:13.030
time to toast is a brioche. So that takes…

00:39:13.280 –> 00:39:15.239
probably less than a minute, probably 45 seconds.

00:39:15.840 –> 00:39:18.059
The ones that take the longest is something like

00:39:18.059 –> 00:39:21.659
a high bran content, wholemeal, seedy type bread

00:39:21.659 –> 00:39:24.559
that’s not got a lot of malt in it. And that

00:39:24.559 –> 00:39:26.679
one takes like three and a half minutes. So how

00:39:26.679 –> 00:39:29.519
someone can work out whether to do it 45 seconds

00:39:29.519 –> 00:39:32.280
or three and a half minutes. humans aren’t made

00:39:32.280 –> 00:39:33.380
for that sort of decision making. I didn’t even

00:39:33.380 –> 00:39:34.760
realise, I’ll be honest, I didn’t realise that

00:39:34.760 –> 00:39:36.840
the knob and the toaster was timing. Like, I

00:39:36.840 –> 00:39:38.360
just thought it was, you know, less brown, more

00:39:38.360 –> 00:39:40.599
brown. And it wasn’t until pretty much researching

00:39:40.599 –> 00:39:42.619
it, it was like, oh, it’s a timer. It’s just

00:39:42.619 –> 00:39:44.460
a timer. You know, it’s a timer. But like, I

00:39:44.460 –> 00:39:45.800
take stuff, you know, white bread out of the

00:39:45.800 –> 00:39:48.960
fridge versus, you know, fresh brown bread. They’re

00:39:48.960 –> 00:39:50.699
on the same setting and you end up popping them

00:39:50.699 –> 00:39:52.619
down multiple times and setting them back to

00:39:52.619 –> 00:39:55.000
the kitchen. So you can solve all our problems.

00:39:56.110 –> 00:39:57.969
Can I have one? Like, how do I get one of these

00:39:57.969 –> 00:40:02.670
radioactive toast detectors in my toaster? Essentially,

00:40:02.809 –> 00:40:06.829
I got into the press quite significantly. It

00:40:06.829 –> 00:40:09.010
was in every national newspaper. I was like,

00:40:09.090 –> 00:40:10.829
as you say, this is the future of toasters. Thank

00:40:10.829 –> 00:40:13.489
God someone’s come up with a solution. I was

00:40:13.489 –> 00:40:18.909
on BBC, Tomorrow’s World, finalist awards, things

00:40:18.909 –> 00:40:20.670
like Channel 4, Big Breakfast Show, all these

00:40:20.670 –> 00:40:22.369
sorts of things, because everyone was so excited.

00:40:22.570 –> 00:40:25.800
But despite me… Then meeting loads and loads

00:40:25.800 –> 00:40:28.739
of big brands, almost every big brand, toaster

00:40:28.739 –> 00:40:31.679
brand or white goods brand in the world, I just

00:40:31.679 –> 00:40:33.639
really struggled to find anyone who could take

00:40:33.639 –> 00:40:36.920
it on and develop the technology. And part of

00:40:36.920 –> 00:40:38.679
it is because I realised after a bit, toaster

00:40:38.679 –> 00:40:41.059
manufacturers or white goods manufacturers don’t

00:40:41.059 –> 00:40:45.380
develop technology. They just specify a colour,

00:40:45.539 –> 00:40:49.260
a colour trend that year, what colour the lights

00:40:49.260 –> 00:40:52.119
will be, how many LEDs they want, does it want

00:40:52.119 –> 00:40:55.500
a silver trim. A lot of them weren’t cut out

00:40:55.500 –> 00:40:58.500
for taking on such a complex bit of technology

00:40:58.500 –> 00:41:01.019
development. Even in the history of the toast,

00:41:01.179 –> 00:41:04.440
GE didn’t invent the wire. They nicked it from

00:41:04.440 –> 00:41:07.480
Marshall Chemist and made it look pretty. And

00:41:07.480 –> 00:41:11.000
so this is not new. It’s 120 years of just making

00:41:11.000 –> 00:41:13.360
them look great and no new innovation in the

00:41:13.360 –> 00:41:16.099
core technologies. So did you find that they

00:41:16.099 –> 00:41:18.860
weren’t willing to invest in technology or was

00:41:18.860 –> 00:41:21.019
it that they didn’t want to change what they

00:41:21.019 –> 00:41:23.610
were doing in their business model? Their business

00:41:23.610 –> 00:41:26.469
models just not cut out for developing such a

00:41:26.469 –> 00:41:30.750
revolutionary new sensor. So eventually we worked

00:41:30.750 –> 00:41:33.230
out maybe we could go to a sensor manufacturer.

00:41:33.429 –> 00:41:35.530
So we went a little bit more sort of deep, deep

00:41:35.530 –> 00:41:38.880
down. into the product. That didn’t quite work

00:41:38.880 –> 00:41:41.320
out. Loads of big brands trying to convince them

00:41:41.320 –> 00:41:44.039
that this is the future. James Dyson was one.

00:41:44.360 –> 00:41:46.340
I was going to say, because they do develop new

00:41:46.340 –> 00:41:48.800
technology, don’t they? So Dyson is kind of known

00:41:48.800 –> 00:41:51.800
for developing new technology. So tell us, why

00:41:51.800 –> 00:41:55.420
did Dyson take it on or how did that go? They

00:41:55.420 –> 00:41:58.199
showed interest twice, but they were very slow.

00:41:58.440 –> 00:42:01.679
Not that I’m going to go at them at all. between

00:42:01.679 –> 00:42:04.639
the two meetings, another company had shown serious

00:42:04.639 –> 00:42:06.840
interest and wanted to sign a deal. So unfortunately,

00:42:07.079 –> 00:42:09.179
just timing -wise, I had to go with this other

00:42:09.179 –> 00:42:11.480
company. Although that one didn’t work out because

00:42:11.480 –> 00:42:14.360
in the Far East, they flew me out there. We tried

00:42:14.360 –> 00:42:16.679
to develop it. Again, it was just too complex

00:42:16.679 –> 00:42:20.380
for them to understand. This was quite raw, new

00:42:20.380 –> 00:42:22.440
technology. So yeah, I was just trying to find

00:42:22.440 –> 00:42:24.460
the right company who could take it on. Dyson,

00:42:24.539 –> 00:42:26.960
I’m not sure whether he would have gone in the

00:42:26.960 –> 00:42:29.610
end with it if I’d given him that. That said,

00:42:29.690 –> 00:42:31.670
sign the deal. How does James like his toast?

00:42:31.929 –> 00:42:37.349
I don’t know. Probably not the way I showed it

00:42:37.349 –> 00:42:40.230
to him in the office, which is things went a

00:42:40.230 –> 00:42:42.829
little bit wrong. We over -toasted the toast

00:42:42.829 –> 00:42:45.530
in his office. Oh, no. You can’t leave it at

00:42:45.530 –> 00:42:47.949
that, Paul. You need to tell us what happened.

00:42:48.250 –> 00:42:52.110
There’s a demo in James Dyson’s office down in

00:42:52.110 –> 00:42:54.530
Wiltshire. There was him and his team. There

00:42:54.530 –> 00:42:57.449
was me and my team. And we did the demo with

00:42:57.449 –> 00:42:59.949
my… toaster prototype and it worked absolutely

00:42:59.949 –> 00:43:02.210
perfectly first time i think the first bit of

00:43:02.210 –> 00:43:04.269
toast was something like three minutes put it

00:43:04.269 –> 00:43:06.789
down again second time same bit of bread and

00:43:06.789 –> 00:43:08.809
it cut the time right down to like 45 seconds

00:43:08.809 –> 00:43:10.900
it proved it worked Didn’t burn the toast at

00:43:10.900 –> 00:43:13.340
all. And I said, look, it’ll do it again. Third

00:43:13.340 –> 00:43:16.199
time. Popped it down again. And then popped it

00:43:16.199 –> 00:43:19.059
up even quicker, down to like 25 seconds. Popped

00:43:19.059 –> 00:43:21.280
it down a fourth time. And my team was sort of

00:43:21.280 –> 00:43:23.760
going, okay, let’s stop this now. I think we’ve

00:43:23.760 –> 00:43:25.920
demonstrated it enough. I did it like seven or

00:43:25.920 –> 00:43:28.039
eight times. I just kept putting the same bit

00:43:28.039 –> 00:43:30.199
of bread down to prove it wouldn’t burn it. But

00:43:30.199 –> 00:43:34.099
I forgot I built in a 20 -second buffer on each.

00:43:34.650 –> 00:43:36.570
each toasting and it basically the poor old bit

00:43:36.570 –> 00:43:38.349
of bread had just had enough and it just started

00:43:38.349 –> 00:43:41.590
to to smoke uh just purely because it just been

00:43:41.590 –> 00:43:44.809
put down so many times and the smoke started

00:43:44.809 –> 00:43:48.469
to billow out in the office and i just thought

00:43:48.469 –> 00:43:50.690
oh there’s a factory it’s james dice’s factory

00:43:50.690 –> 00:43:52.949
next door we better we better open all the windows

00:43:52.949 –> 00:43:55.530
and yeah make sure the alarms don’t go off and

00:43:55.530 –> 00:43:57.469
not set the sprinklers off but yeah it was a

00:43:57.469 –> 00:43:59.949
demo too far i think we know why james didn’t

00:43:59.949 –> 00:44:03.559
take your products on now paul Oh, just, he understood.

00:44:03.840 –> 00:44:07.219
It was just, yeah, overdid the demo. That’s wonderful.

00:44:07.320 –> 00:44:09.420
He’ll remember it. Yeah, great story. Listeners,

00:44:09.420 –> 00:44:11.099
there’s a thumb rule when you demonstrate a product

00:44:11.099 –> 00:44:13.519
anywhere, whether it’s on Tomorrow’s World or

00:44:13.519 –> 00:44:16.519
on a sales team or anything, the demo won’t work.

00:44:16.519 –> 00:44:18.599
Like, it doesn’t matter how much you’ve rehearsed

00:44:18.599 –> 00:44:21.579
it, it never works properly. And it’s how you

00:44:21.579 –> 00:44:23.360
handle it, you know, because early prototypes,

00:44:23.500 –> 00:44:25.699
they’re fickle and, you know, you’re under pressure.

00:44:25.820 –> 00:44:28.079
They don’t work. You know that. We developed

00:44:28.079 –> 00:44:30.440
a… We’ve developed a solution to that, D2M,

00:44:30.460 –> 00:44:32.360
because it happens all the time. The prototype

00:44:32.360 –> 00:44:34.880
will work 100 times brilliantly, and then you

00:44:34.880 –> 00:44:36.519
put it in front of the person that matters, the

00:44:36.519 –> 00:44:38.659
buyer or whatever, and it won’t. So we always

00:44:38.659 –> 00:44:41.380
say to clients, get a really good video, because

00:44:41.380 –> 00:44:43.179
then the worst case, at least you can show the

00:44:43.179 –> 00:44:46.400
video at work. Yeah, good point. Very good point.

00:44:46.420 –> 00:44:49.099
Thanks, mate. I’m curious to know… paul as

00:44:49.099 –> 00:44:51.059
we kind of think now about the future maybe of

00:44:51.059 –> 00:44:53.239
the toaster do you think anyone’s going to adopt

00:44:53.239 –> 00:44:57.039
your idea are there other ways of sensing the

00:44:57.039 –> 00:44:58.760
brownness of the toast to get to a point where

00:44:58.760 –> 00:45:00.679
we don’t actually have to guess at the time we’re

00:45:00.679 –> 00:45:03.599
going to turn the dial to my particular patent

00:45:03.599 –> 00:45:06.920
was licensed to a well -known company in australia

00:45:06.920 –> 00:45:09.500
big big brand i’m not sure whether they’re going

00:45:09.500 –> 00:45:11.219
to take it forward or not because that was a

00:45:11.219 –> 00:45:14.380
while ago now and this is patent issues there’s

00:45:14.380 –> 00:45:17.130
one other product i did buy It wasn’t available

00:45:17.130 –> 00:45:20.789
in the UK, and it was from Tfell, and again,

00:45:20.809 –> 00:45:22.150
another well -known brand, and they were using

00:45:22.150 –> 00:45:25.789
an optical sensor, and it did work. It really

00:45:25.789 –> 00:45:28.250
worked well. It’s the only one I’ve found which

00:45:28.250 –> 00:45:32.409
was the serious alternative. I don’t think they

00:45:32.409 –> 00:45:34.070
manufacture it anymore. It’s a real shame, but

00:45:34.070 –> 00:45:38.619
I’ve got that in my loft. That’s my backup toaster.

00:45:38.699 –> 00:45:41.719
Backup toaster. Yeah. I mean, I did also buy

00:45:41.719 –> 00:45:44.199
one from Porsche, as in the Porsche designer.

00:45:44.820 –> 00:45:47.079
It looked absolutely gorgeous. Again, it’s in

00:45:47.079 –> 00:45:49.699
my loft. It really is the most beautiful toaster

00:45:49.699 –> 00:45:51.780
you’ve ever seen. It’s extruded aluminium, all

00:45:51.780 –> 00:45:55.599
CNC machined. It’s absolutely gorgeous. But again,

00:45:55.699 –> 00:45:58.500
I think it only used a timer, but because it’s

00:45:58.500 –> 00:46:01.460
Porsche. they wanted to make it toast faster

00:46:01.460 –> 00:46:05.440
than any other toaster. The fastest, fastest

00:46:05.440 –> 00:46:08.380
toaster. I think it has super powerful heating

00:46:08.380 –> 00:46:10.920
elements. But I realised after a bit, again,

00:46:10.960 –> 00:46:14.000
you can’t toast, you can’t speed up toasting

00:46:14.000 –> 00:46:17.260
because bread is bread. You end up, all you do

00:46:17.260 –> 00:46:18.880
is scorch the outside and you don’t cook the

00:46:18.880 –> 00:46:21.559
inside, whereas people toast should be slowly

00:46:21.559 –> 00:46:25.059
toasted all the way through the food. So it’s

00:46:25.059 –> 00:46:27.880
interesting how technology, you can’t… you

00:46:27.880 –> 00:46:30.619
can’t sort of mess around with what you’re trying

00:46:30.619 –> 00:46:33.000
to do you know which is just toast a bit of bread

00:46:33.000 –> 00:46:36.400
so i feel i’m writing like a specification for

00:46:36.400 –> 00:46:38.500
what we’ve described today so it needs to not

00:46:38.500 –> 00:46:41.909
set fire it needs to allow you to get tongs in

00:46:41.909 –> 00:46:44.269
and out easily and not have crumbs it needs to

00:46:44.269 –> 00:46:46.150
be able to cook different thicknesses of bread

00:46:46.150 –> 00:46:47.829
so you need to know how thick the bread has to

00:46:47.829 –> 00:46:50.829
be and warm it at the right depth for that particular

00:46:50.829 –> 00:46:52.849
type of bread product so the inside is just right

00:46:52.849 –> 00:46:55.769
it needs to be tall enough to take tall enough

00:46:55.769 –> 00:46:58.690
for the big farmhouse yeah yeah and thick enough

00:46:58.690 –> 00:47:02.610
for the brioches um it needs to detect the maillard

00:47:02.610 –> 00:47:04.449
reaction happening on the outside and know when

00:47:04.449 –> 00:47:06.829
to switch on and off it needs to know what what

00:47:06.829 –> 00:47:08.590
level of brownness you want. You know, you’re

00:47:08.590 –> 00:47:10.929
a hard person or, you know, a light stuff. Like,

00:47:10.929 –> 00:47:14.489
it’s a surprisingly complex problem and probably

00:47:14.489 –> 00:47:17.570
why you end up kind of keep checking and things.

00:47:17.690 –> 00:47:20.929
And that doesn’t happen very often in design.

00:47:21.090 –> 00:47:22.889
Like, you’ve got all these different factors.

00:47:24.170 –> 00:47:26.909
How could we solve this? Like, what do we need

00:47:26.909 –> 00:47:30.110
in this future toaster? Is it lots of sensors

00:47:30.110 –> 00:47:32.650
and AI and things? Or is it a different way of

00:47:32.650 –> 00:47:35.639
thinking about toast? Or is it… Just a different

00:47:35.639 –> 00:47:37.059
way of thinking about the design of it, like

00:47:37.059 –> 00:47:39.099
the toaster ovens they have in the US or the

00:47:39.099 –> 00:47:41.960
air fries or something like that. I think it’s

00:47:41.960 –> 00:47:43.940
a little bit of what you’ve said, a bit of all

00:47:43.940 –> 00:47:46.980
the above, but I think better sensing. Everything

00:47:46.980 –> 00:47:48.840
in this day and age is automated. Look at the

00:47:48.840 –> 00:47:52.920
car technology. It just needs more advanced sensing.

00:47:53.360 –> 00:47:55.980
And so I think the brands need to get a bit more

00:47:55.980 –> 00:47:58.550
on top of that instead of just… specifying

00:47:58.550 –> 00:48:00.949
colors and how many buttons people just want

00:48:00.949 –> 00:48:03.610
an easy life yeah they just want to just push

00:48:03.610 –> 00:48:05.570
that one button and it’s done for them you know

00:48:05.570 –> 00:48:08.550
it maybe as you say it learns about their preference

00:48:08.550 –> 00:48:11.590
as well yeah you know a little bit more just

00:48:11.590 –> 00:48:14.849
in touch with the human at the minute they’re

00:48:14.849 –> 00:48:17.250
not in touch they’re just it’s just a mechanical

00:48:17.250 –> 00:48:20.389
box with a heater in it and do the heaters need

00:48:20.389 –> 00:48:21.710
to change i mean they’ve still got fundamentally

00:48:21.710 –> 00:48:24.150
they’re still micro marshes wise yes i know they’re

00:48:24.150 –> 00:48:25.730
slightly better stuff with the you know mic and

00:48:25.730 –> 00:48:29.889
stuff Do we need lasers and plasmas? Or is that

00:48:29.889 –> 00:48:32.070
not the right solution for this type of product?

00:48:32.150 –> 00:48:33.469
Yeah, it could be. It could be the solution.

00:48:33.630 –> 00:48:35.949
Absolutely. It could be. Yeah. I mean, the one

00:48:35.949 –> 00:48:37.869
problem, as you hinted at, is the environment

00:48:37.869 –> 00:48:41.090
within a toaster is pretty nasty. Super hot.

00:48:41.349 –> 00:48:43.730
Lots of carbonisation going on in there. There’s

00:48:43.730 –> 00:48:45.949
lots of burnt crumbs. You’ve got caramelised

00:48:45.949 –> 00:48:48.780
sugars getting stuck onto all the surfaces. It’s

00:48:48.780 –> 00:48:51.239
a really bad environment to put any sensor in.

00:48:51.320 –> 00:48:53.500
You know, that is a challenge. I do think that

00:48:53.500 –> 00:48:56.019
James Dyson is our best hope here, actually,

00:48:56.079 –> 00:48:57.980
because they are a technology company. They’ve

00:48:57.980 –> 00:48:59.880
done incredible things with motors and all that

00:48:59.880 –> 00:49:02.159
kind of stuff. They’re much more used to developing

00:49:02.159 –> 00:49:04.199
new technology and innovation than any of the

00:49:04.199 –> 00:49:05.760
other kind of big toaster brands and things.

00:49:05.840 –> 00:49:09.179
So I hope he’s listening. Give me a shout if

00:49:09.179 –> 00:49:11.760
he wants, definitely. I hope we’ve covered the

00:49:11.760 –> 00:49:14.139
future of the toaster eloquently. And, you know,

00:49:14.159 –> 00:49:17.289
it’s a wonderful product. Hasn’t changed much

00:49:17.289 –> 00:49:20.289
in 120 years. There’s clearly loads of opportunity

00:49:20.289 –> 00:49:23.869
around its future and its development. But it

00:49:23.869 –> 00:49:27.010
needs somebody with the impetus to put new technology

00:49:27.010 –> 00:49:29.070
into it and invest. And obviously, consumers

00:49:29.070 –> 00:49:31.570
willing to pay for quite a substantial step change

00:49:31.570 –> 00:49:34.150
in technology. You know, moving up from that

00:49:34.150 –> 00:49:38.309
£3 Thomas Thwaites, make your own one to £300

00:49:38.309 –> 00:49:40.150
toaster. But we’ve seen it in other industries.

00:49:40.250 –> 00:49:41.670
We’ve talked about it in the hair straighteners.

00:49:41.769 –> 00:49:44.210
You know, it hasn’t happened in the washing machines.

00:49:44.610 –> 00:49:46.400
And it hasn’t happened in the… tin opener but

00:49:46.400 –> 00:49:49.280
but maybe the toasters where the future future

00:49:49.280 –> 00:49:51.579
of domestic everyday innovation comes from and

00:49:51.579 –> 00:49:53.679
i hope i hope that some of the ideas that paul

00:49:53.679 –> 00:49:55.519
has shared with you guys today and phil has talked

00:49:55.519 –> 00:49:58.739
about have inspired you to go home and make a

00:49:58.739 –> 00:50:00.760
better toaster yeah and if you could self -clean

00:50:00.760 –> 00:50:02.739
at the same time that’d be even better yeah that’d

00:50:02.739 –> 00:50:06.019
be cool yeah beautiful that’d be cheap of course

00:50:07.469 –> 00:50:09.769
I’d like to thank our guests, Paul Brown from

00:50:09.769 –> 00:50:12.190
Innovation and Design, and of course, Phil Staunson

00:50:12.190 –> 00:50:15.150
from D2M for talking to us about the future of

00:50:15.150 –> 00:50:17.949
toasters and getting me very hungry in the process.

00:50:18.210 –> 00:50:20.329
Thank you for joining us and listening to the

00:50:20.329 –> 00:50:23.659
wonder that is the toaster. But this is the last

00:50:23.659 –> 00:50:26.539
in this series of Why The Fork. I know, I know,

00:50:26.559 –> 00:50:28.940
we haven’t even done The Fork yet. We’d love

00:50:28.940 –> 00:50:30.940
to be back for a second series in the spring.

00:50:31.139 –> 00:50:33.760
And to do so, we really need your support. And

00:50:33.760 –> 00:50:35.940
that means spreading the word, sharing, liking,

00:50:36.159 –> 00:50:39.559
commenting and toasting us with five stars. Thank

00:50:39.559 –> 00:50:41.500
you so much for listening. Thanks to Phil and

00:50:41.500 –> 00:50:44.289
all our guests in this series. Thank you for

00:50:44.289 –> 00:50:46.750
listening. It’s been a real pleasure to tell

00:50:46.750 –> 00:50:49.329
you all these wonderful stories. And we’ll see

00:50:49.329 –> 00:50:52.909
you again in our second series for more Why the

00:50:52.909 –> 00:50:53.329
Fork.