Why the tin opener? Napoleon’s delicious problem

WEBVTT

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Hello, I’m Ben Diamond, a product manager and

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inventor of consumer products. And in this podcast

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series, Why the Fork, we’re going to be looking

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at the everyday products in your home and office.

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The type of things that you take for granted,

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but are really quite clever. We’re looking at

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the humble objects you touch every day and asking,

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why are they like this? We’re going to be exploring

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how politics, economics and social change encourage

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the development of new solutions, how great engineers

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and designers came up with them, and how ideas

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don’t just come from nowhere, they’re inspired

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by trends and needs. You’ll also see how often

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the designs we’ve ended up with aren’t quite

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perfect, but are good enough. But that’s not

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all. We’re going to be chatting to some of the

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designers and engineers tasked with developing

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the next generation of these products. to see

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what’s on the horizon and if they will evolve

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again or disappear entirely. This is a podcast

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by D2M and we’ll be talking with Phil Staunton,

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our product design expert, later. In this episode,

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we’re going to be looking at our first mundane

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product. Well, actually, it’s quite a fabulous

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innovation that you definitely have in your home.

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The humble tin opener. Before we can explore

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why the tin opener is such a clever little device,

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we’re going to go back in time. You may know

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the tin opener was created 50 years after the

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invention of the tin can and the rotary opener,

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that’s the one in your drawer, 100 years after.

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You will probably wonder why it took so long

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for someone to work out how on earth to open

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the container people had been preserving food

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in for the last 100 years. Let’s step back in

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time. 230 years. It’s in 1795, the heyday of

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the Napoleonic era, and France is fast becoming

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the biggest empire in the world. But it’s hit

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a snag. Without a good food supply, the French

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Navy’s operations are at risk. It must find regular

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friendly ports in order to fill its ships with

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salted meats and fresh food. What Napoleon and

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his armies really needed was a way of preserving

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food long enough for it to get around the world.

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So like many great innovations, this one started

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with a political push from the government for

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12 ,000 francs. Napoleon asked the inventors

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of the time to find a way to preserve food that

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wasn’t salted meat in wooden barrels. Step in

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Nicolas Appert, whose process to preserve pasturized

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food in glass jars was fantastic. The beef three

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-fourths done, I put into jars which I filled

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up with broth. Having corked and wrapped them,

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I placed them upright in a cauldron. The next

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day, I besmeared the corks with resin in order

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to forward the bottles to different seaports.

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At the end of a year and a year and a half, the

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broth and boiled meat were found as good as if

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made the day they were eaten. His preservation

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technique was brilliant. It’s the first time

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that food could be cooked and stored for longer

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periods. It also took him about 20 years to work

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out. Next, Philippe de Girard in France noted

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the fragile glass would break and decided to

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do the same process, using metal cans. Now, these

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tin cans aren’t the ones in your cupboard. These

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are thick rolled steel. Very similar to the processing

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technologies available to the Navy. Think like

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little cannons. And this is common in innovation.

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Technology being adapted from one industry to

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another. Thick steel cans lined with protective

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and expensive tin to stop reaction with food.

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Our cans are still coated today. Oh, and sealed

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with lead, which is poisonous. He tried to patent

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it. And then, like great innovations, it was

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then stolen by the British and taken up by Brian

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Donkin, who’s like the superhero canning, who

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commercialised it with the first canning lines

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in London. We see this pattern often when invention

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happens in one part of the world and is commercialised

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by another. The British Navy, having successfully

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bought or stolen this great innovation from the

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French, started supplying their armies with canned

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foods in 1831. That’s only 36 years after Napoleon’s

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competition. You’d imagine at this point someone

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said, let’s invent something to open this delicious

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food. But let’s just think about the situation.

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These newfangled cans are replacing barrels of

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salted meats on ships. And to open barrels, you’d

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use crowbars and hammers and chisels and the

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like. And military ships have tools aplenty.

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All you need to do is use the same sort of tools

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you already have lying around the ship. And the

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cans are so much better, the food’s so much tastier

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for the troops, that you’re willing to compromise

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with the bother of opening. Many times, existing

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products are good enough that consumers don’t

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ask for a better solution. And in this case,

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the food in the tin can is so much better than

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the barrels of salt that the inconvenience is

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just too small. This explains why it took so

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long for the opener to be invented. And our societies

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were very different. The well -off would have

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had servants and would have had the tools available

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in big houses and therefore there was no need

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for a specific opener. And servants are not educated

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to invent a better process. A working class person,

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if you’re able to afford a can, you’re very likely

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to be in the mechanical trades and therefore

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you’d have your own tools as part of your job.

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Until there was an emerging middle class who

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didn’t have servants, were in clerical work and

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didn’t have the tools, there was no need for

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dedicated openers. One of the brilliant advantages

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of the can is that it allows you to preserve

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food for longer. This is, you know, 100 years

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before full refrigeration. In the Great Exhibition

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at Crystal Palace in 1851, 40 years after the

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first cans, We start seeing tins being proposed

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for the middle classes, as well as luxury foodstuffs

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being available to people all year round. Sardines

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and truffles, artichokes and turtle soup, tin

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desserts, strawberries, peaches or peas. The

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exhibition is attended by royalty and about a

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third of the population in Britain. It’s like

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the CES of the Victorian era. It’s the biggest

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mass marketing event with demonstrations of the

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latest technology including lifts and photographs

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and food from all over the world brought to you

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by the tin can. And there was an evolution of

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the tin can forming process, from heavy metal

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welding to forming and seaming, driven not by

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the need to get in, but the need to get the cost

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down and speed of production up, the cans themselves

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becoming thinner and standardised. With this

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great exhibition marketing push to both the wealthy

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and the middle classes, and the technology of

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the thinner cans, now an opener was wanted and

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feasible. It was time for the tin opener. The

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earliest can opener, a hook knife in 1840 in

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Britain and then 1858 from America, are a bit

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naff, cumbersome and complex and not suitable

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for domestic use. It was Robert and Frederick

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Yates, a UK instrument manufacturer, who developed

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an improved can opener in the 1850s, just after

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the Great Exhibition. Yates’ is a G -shaped implement.

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You might have one on your Swiss Army knife or

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on the side of an opener today. You push the

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pointy end through the can’s surface. which takes

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a lot of force, and then using the curved sharp

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edge to ratchet through the lid, working along

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the thin edge. If you’ve ever used one, they’re

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great for getting into the tin, but it’s hard

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work to open. But so much better than the hammer

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and chisels that preceded them, and suitable

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for domestic, servant -free middle classes that

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the canning industry were targeting. In fact,

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when we hit the Second World War, we were still

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mainly using these ratchets. A folding lever

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version, the P -38, was distributed to the US

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Army troops for their canned rations. After 138

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years, we were still using the very similar technologies

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to open cans. There are limitations. You cut

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yourself on the sharp raised edges and contamination

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of the food because of the coatings and swarf

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from the tin can itself. The opener was slow.

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Basically a sharp knife being hammered in as

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late as 1950. There’s room for improvement. We

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don’t know what the inventive process was. Perhaps

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a creative workshop or a series of many prototypes.

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But in 1925, the US Starwheel Company developed

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the first modern rotating gripper can opener.

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Followed a year later by Charles Arthur Bunker.

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which is the design you have in the drawer today.

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Both use the familiar two -handed levers that

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help grip the can like a pair of pliers and forces

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the first puncture of the can. The star will

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drag the cam along the tin. It’s simpler and

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cheaper, but it was superseded by the bunker.

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This clamps onto the side of the tin, which is

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then guided around the crimped edge of the can,

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the bit that sticks up, focusing the force on

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the lid. A pizza cutter like Will, of hardened

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steel, slices the thinnest part of the lid using

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shear force. What’s fascinating is the shearing

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effect means there’s less force applied by you,

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like a pair of scissors slicing through wrapping

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paper. The smooth edge of the can helps guide

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the opener. Holding the rotary wing acts as a

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lever and it magnifies the force being applied

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to the metal. A set of knurled cogs transfers

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that movement of the wings, drives the cannon

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around and rotates the cutting wheel with consistent

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force. It’s quicker and safer and leaves no sharp

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serrations, much more effective than the ratcheting

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of the old Yates’ G -shaped openers. A good sharp

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rotary opener will leave very little shards and

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a smooth cut. Overall… A very clever invention.

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The similarities with the Starwheel and the Bunker

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are perhaps not surprising. Rotary cutting was

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a known art in fabric cutting and refining it

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to work on the can was complex but within reach.

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But they are very similar in design and operation

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and it’s not surprising that Starwheel took Bunker

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to court for patent infringement like our big

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tech companies do today. Starwheel lost. On a

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technicality, the position of the knurled roller.

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It’s flat on the top of the can for Starwell,

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but not for Bunker. When the defendant’s device

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is placed at right angles to the top for the

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purpose of trying to cut the wall of the can,

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thereby preventing the knurled roller from performing

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the function that it does in the case of plaintiff’s

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patent, the knurled roller lies flat on the top

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of the can. That cannot be done with the defendant’s

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device. That’s the District Court of Missouri

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in 1930. Interestingly, in the case, Bunker describes

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they cut the side wall, not the top of the can,

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but consumers just found the easiest way to use

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the opener, like the existing Yates’ G -shaped,

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through the lid, even though the designers intended

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it to cut the side wall. Much later from the

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60s, we start to see the electric tin openers,

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and Paul Posniak and Keith Longstaff, a sidewall

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seam opener. That’s those that are specific to

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open the sidewall rather than the lid. But fundamentally,

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the rotary opener design hasn’t changed much

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in the last 60 odd years. Now it’s not perfect,

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it still leaves sharp edges, although nowhere

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near as dangerous as Yates’s, with its serrated

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edge. And you need good dexterity. Now I know

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what you’re thinking. Ben, what about key tin

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openers? Think Tom and Jerry’s sardines. A key

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that you wind round the middle of a can of bully

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brief or spam that allows rectangular containers.

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They had been around for about 30 years after

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the Yateses, but they were costly and unreliable.

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Meanwhile, in the drinks can category, the ring

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pull, which was developed in the 60s and eventually

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replaced with the aluminium pushing, was transferred

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to the tin can. Suddenly, you no longer need

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an opener. You can just lift that ring pull end

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and access the beans. Is this game over for the

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opener? Well, we have about 40 cans in our larder.

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All have the ring pull, except for four of them.

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And these are on the economy brands. For economy

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brands, the ring pull is just not an option.

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It’s too expensive. This suggests that the opener

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has a big role to play in allowing people to

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access affordable preserved food. Then there

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is plastic packs. They can be resealed, are lighter

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and easier to get into, and have a better marketing

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image. But we all know how bad multi -laminate

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plastics are for the environment. And we also

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have refrigeration and more glass packs, so less

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need of the can and its opener. But these methods

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of food preservation use a lot of energy and

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create a lot of waste. So I wonder, with a very

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easy to recycle can, which does not use energy

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to store or contribute to plastic waste, see

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a resurgence as energy gets more expensive and

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being sustainable becomes more important. Will

00:14:12.019 –> 00:14:14.299
we therefore see a new generation of canned goods,

00:14:14.519 –> 00:14:16.960
canned marketing like the Great Exhibition and

00:14:16.960 –> 00:14:20.759
a resurgence of the tin opener? Although the

00:14:20.759 –> 00:14:22.659
fundamental principles of the wheels and cogs

00:14:22.659 –> 00:14:25.299
and levers haven’t changed much, the likes of

00:14:25.299 –> 00:14:27.539
Oxo Good Grips and Joseph & Joseph have made

00:14:27.539 –> 00:14:29.700
beautiful designs that are more comfortable to

00:14:29.700 –> 00:14:32.440
hold and that are more ergonomic to use, particularly

00:14:32.440 –> 00:14:35.559
with those with arthritis. So I wonder, have

00:14:35.559 –> 00:14:39.299
we reached peak tin opener? The can preserves

00:14:39.299 –> 00:14:42.779
food wonderfully. It’s easy to recycle, really

00:14:42.779 –> 00:14:45.519
versatile and has a standardised format without

00:14:45.519 –> 00:14:49.470
needing power. It’s incredibly convenient. A

00:14:49.470 –> 00:14:51.830
lot of innovation can still be done to get rid

00:14:51.830 –> 00:14:54.909
of the sharp edges, help people who have mobility

00:14:54.909 –> 00:14:58.049
limitations and provide a really cost -effective

00:14:58.049 –> 00:15:02.009
solution for economy brands. The experience of

00:15:02.009 –> 00:15:04.409
opening tins of beans still leaves a lot to be

00:15:04.409 –> 00:15:07.090
desired. They get caught on the sharp edges,

00:15:07.309 –> 00:15:09.830
cleaning the can, the lid scratches my sink.

00:15:10.169 –> 00:15:12.450
And typically, when there’s a category that’s

00:15:12.450 –> 00:15:14.950
underdeveloped, think tonic water before fever

00:15:14.950 –> 00:15:18.840
tree, it’s ripe for disruption. I mean… Where

00:15:18.840 –> 00:15:21.820
are the laser cutter tin openers? We cut steel

00:15:21.820 –> 00:15:25.340
in factories using lasers. A mini one could instantly

00:15:25.340 –> 00:15:27.799
slice through the lid. No problem when you have

00:15:27.799 –> 00:15:31.179
arthritis. So I think more innovation to come.

00:15:37.620 –> 00:15:41.039
On a journey that spans 200 years, we’ve shown

00:15:41.039 –> 00:15:44.399
how the tin can started as a competition in order

00:15:44.399 –> 00:15:47.600
to feed the Navy. We’ve seen why it took 100

00:15:47.600 –> 00:15:50.240
years of invention, marketing, social change

00:15:50.240 –> 00:15:52.840
and supply chain improvement for us to see the

00:15:52.840 –> 00:15:56.840
rotary openers we’re familiar with. Why innovation

00:15:56.840 –> 00:16:00.000
has continued to apply on both the tin, on preserving

00:16:00.000 –> 00:16:03.940
food and on the can opener itself. And the journey

00:16:03.940 –> 00:16:06.960
is not over yet. The can has a long way to go.

00:16:07.120 –> 00:16:09.700
And with the sustainable challenges we face,

00:16:09.879 –> 00:16:12.480
there will be more innovations on the humble

00:16:12.480 –> 00:16:19.330
tin opener to come. Let’s talk more about the

00:16:19.330 –> 00:16:22.309
tin opener. Today we’re joined by Phil Staunton

00:16:22.309 –> 00:16:25.889
from D2M. Hi Ben. And why are you an expert on

00:16:25.889 –> 00:16:28.370
tin openers? I’m not sure I’m an expert on tin

00:16:28.370 –> 00:16:31.669
openers. I’m a product designer by background

00:16:31.669 –> 00:16:34.830
and for the last 15 years I’ve run a small product

00:16:34.830 –> 00:16:37.490
design company and we’ve worked on all sorts

00:16:37.490 –> 00:16:40.720
of consumer products, some of which… I can’t

00:16:40.720 –> 00:16:42.220
say so much you can see behind me because it’s

00:16:42.220 –> 00:16:47.000
a podcast. You have to imagine, listeners, a

00:16:47.000 –> 00:16:50.600
smorgasbord of products from backpacks to coffee,

00:16:50.820 –> 00:16:54.860
percolators, and some strange medical -looking

00:16:54.860 –> 00:16:57.480
appliances as well in the corner, I think. So,

00:16:57.600 –> 00:17:00.279
Phil, this is the hardest question of the podcast.

00:17:00.559 –> 00:17:03.360
When you use a tin opener, are you on the top

00:17:03.360 –> 00:17:08.299
of the can or on the side? Are you a bunker or

00:17:08.299 –> 00:17:11.579
a star wheel man? I am an on the top kind of

00:17:11.579 –> 00:17:14.720
guy. But the problem actually in my house is

00:17:14.720 –> 00:17:17.039
that our tin opener is designed for left -handed

00:17:17.039 –> 00:17:19.539
people because my wife and my eldest son are

00:17:19.539 –> 00:17:22.720
left -handed. And I find that a left -handed

00:17:22.720 –> 00:17:24.839
can opener does not work if you are right -handed.

00:17:27.420 –> 00:17:31.019
So four weeks of research in tin openers, I never

00:17:31.019 –> 00:17:33.160
knew there was a left and right tin opener. So

00:17:33.160 –> 00:17:35.279
that’s clearly the first problem that any of

00:17:35.279 –> 00:17:38.660
our designers need to overcome. overcome overcome

00:17:38.660 –> 00:17:42.380
is an ambidextrous you know yeah because my wife

00:17:42.380 –> 00:17:44.359
really struggles with the normal ones and then

00:17:44.359 –> 00:17:45.900
actually i really struggle with the left -handed

00:17:45.900 –> 00:17:48.319
one which basically now means that my tin opener

00:17:48.319 –> 00:17:51.019
is my wife because i’m like i cannot use this

00:17:51.019 –> 00:17:56.759
thing you do it you’ve listened to our fascinating

00:17:56.759 –> 00:17:58.779
story the tin opener the fact that it took over

00:17:58.779 –> 00:18:01.960
50 years for that first opener to appear as a

00:18:01.960 –> 00:18:05.380
designer is that surprising It is surprising,

00:18:05.400 –> 00:18:07.759
and that’s partly because everything is so fast

00:18:07.759 –> 00:18:10.859
now and design has sped up massively in the last

00:18:10.859 –> 00:18:14.180
10 years. So with 3D printing technology and

00:18:14.180 –> 00:18:17.440
3D scanning and obviously all the smorgasbord

00:18:17.440 –> 00:18:20.279
of research opportunities via the internet and

00:18:20.279 –> 00:18:21.859
surveys and all this kind of stuff, actually

00:18:21.859 –> 00:18:25.200
you can move really fast in design now. So it

00:18:25.200 –> 00:18:27.740
was a bit surprising how long it took. And it

00:18:27.740 –> 00:18:29.440
was really fascinating to hear what you were

00:18:29.440 –> 00:18:32.299
saying about why that was. One of the things

00:18:32.299 –> 00:18:34.619
that jumped out, really, was that it came out

00:18:34.619 –> 00:18:37.859
of a design competition, effectively. Now, I

00:18:37.859 –> 00:18:39.599
thought design competitions were a relatively

00:18:39.599 –> 00:18:42.220
new thing. You know, you think kind of like Earth

00:18:42.220 –> 00:18:44.720
Prize or whatever with William and Kate. X -Rise.

00:18:44.779 –> 00:18:47.599
Yeah. But it’s not. It’s really old. And it’s

00:18:47.599 –> 00:18:49.799
been around ages by the sound of things. So do

00:18:49.799 –> 00:18:52.839
you think Matin has a future? Like, we’ve got

00:18:52.839 –> 00:18:54.819
the plastic packaging. We’ve got refrigeration.

00:18:55.200 –> 00:18:57.680
We no longer have to ship stuff on ships to keep

00:18:57.680 –> 00:19:01.099
our navy. Well, maybe we do. Is the tin can dead

00:19:01.099 –> 00:19:04.759
or is there a bright? Aluminium can in the future.

00:19:04.839 –> 00:19:06.920
I don’t think it’s dead. There’s a few reasons

00:19:06.920 –> 00:19:09.200
for that. One is that actually the population

00:19:09.200 –> 00:19:11.539
of the world is still expanding. And obviously,

00:19:11.660 –> 00:19:14.000
in terms of developing countries, people are

00:19:14.000 –> 00:19:16.180
getting wealthier bit by bit. And therefore,

00:19:16.380 –> 00:19:18.180
there’ll be more of a demand from those countries

00:19:18.180 –> 00:19:21.099
for canned goods and things as well. And then

00:19:21.099 –> 00:19:23.559
also, this might have a lesser effect, but there’s

00:19:23.559 –> 00:19:25.420
a small group of people that like to prepare

00:19:25.420 –> 00:19:30.160
for when nuclear war breaks out. And they definitely

00:19:30.160 –> 00:19:31.660
need stuff. I swear the word bunker came out.

00:19:31.839 –> 00:19:33.700
They definitely need stuff. need a lot of stuff

00:19:33.700 –> 00:19:37.460
in tins why is it not easy to open the tin opening

00:19:37.460 –> 00:19:40.140
it yeah and it’s not easy to open the tin because

00:19:40.140 –> 00:19:42.660
because they actually vary quite a lot so in

00:19:42.660 –> 00:19:44.640
terms of the thickness and the thickness of the

00:19:44.640 –> 00:19:46.960
rim at the top and all that kind of stuff and

00:19:46.960 –> 00:19:48.960
if you want to do it in a safe way that doesn’t

00:19:48.960 –> 00:19:50.839
end up with a sharp edge and doesn’t end up with

00:19:50.839 –> 00:19:54.000
shards or bits of the the kind of paper wrapper

00:19:54.000 –> 00:19:56.559
kind of disappearing into the food it’s actually

00:19:56.559 –> 00:19:59.000
quite a challenge and then technically it’s a

00:19:59.000 –> 00:20:01.819
real challenge because It’s actually got to be

00:20:01.819 –> 00:20:04.720
really rigid. And that’s why in some ways the

00:20:04.720 –> 00:20:07.480
kind of original metal can openers from like

00:20:07.480 –> 00:20:09.940
30, 40 years ago still work really well now is

00:20:09.940 –> 00:20:12.920
because they were made in a much more expensive

00:20:12.920 –> 00:20:15.200
way with much more kind of durable and robust

00:20:15.200 –> 00:20:17.400
materials. I think a lot of the problems with

00:20:17.400 –> 00:20:20.400
current can openers is they’re made as cheap

00:20:20.400 –> 00:20:23.279
as possible, inevitably in the Far East for the

00:20:23.279 –> 00:20:27.109
mass market. But unless they’re very rigid, they

00:20:27.109 –> 00:20:30.049
don’t really work. And that’s very hard from

00:20:30.049 –> 00:20:31.509
a designer’s perspective because we’re trying

00:20:31.509 –> 00:20:34.359
to make something that’s highly rigid. and cheap.

00:20:34.539 –> 00:20:36.460
And those two things just don’t go hand in hand.

00:20:36.640 –> 00:20:38.720
If we just paid more for our tin opener, would

00:20:38.720 –> 00:20:41.019
we get a better one then? We’d have better materials

00:20:41.019 –> 00:20:45.960
or is it? I think that’s true. Absolutely. I’m

00:20:45.960 –> 00:20:48.460
very keen to talk to our next guest, Rob, and

00:20:48.460 –> 00:20:50.160
ask him the same question because he’s done a

00:20:50.160 –> 00:20:52.859
lot more in terms of the design of the tin opener

00:20:52.859 –> 00:20:56.400
than I have. But yeah, if you pay more, you would

00:20:56.400 –> 00:20:58.640
certainly get something. Let’s put it differently.

00:20:58.759 –> 00:21:01.180
I think if consumers were prepared to pay more

00:21:01.180 –> 00:21:04.430
for a premium product, then I think we definitely

00:21:04.430 –> 00:21:07.730
end up with better tin openers that were more

00:21:07.730 –> 00:21:10.029
ergonomic, easier to use, less pressure on the

00:21:10.029 –> 00:21:13.509
hands, safer result by the time the tin was opened.

00:21:14.009 –> 00:21:16.609
But if there was a tin opener on the shelves

00:21:16.609 –> 00:21:20.329
for £250, is anyone going to buy it? Probably

00:21:20.329 –> 00:21:22.670
not. But I guess this is the big question. So

00:21:22.670 –> 00:21:24.430
if we look at other categories, and the vacuum

00:21:24.430 –> 00:21:26.410
cleaner category is the classic market for this,

00:21:26.549 –> 00:21:29.690
where no one would believe you’d spend £250,

00:21:29.869 –> 00:21:33.890
£500 on a… vacuum cleaner and obviously several

00:21:33.890 –> 00:21:36.390
brands have now kind of made lots of great products

00:21:36.390 –> 00:21:40.289
for that category why is it that no one’s done

00:21:40.289 –> 00:21:42.529
the same thing on the tin opener yeah it’s an

00:21:42.529 –> 00:21:44.230
interesting question and my first answer to it

00:21:44.230 –> 00:21:46.289
without your example would have been because

00:21:46.289 –> 00:21:48.390
it’s not on show and because no one else sees

00:21:48.390 –> 00:21:51.730
it So in the pushchair market, for example, pushchairs

00:21:51.730 –> 00:21:53.970
used to be, you know, 100, 200 quid. And then

00:21:53.970 –> 00:21:55.890
Bugaboo came along and everyone was paying 500.

00:21:56.089 –> 00:21:58.150
And now you can pay, you know, two grand. And

00:21:58.150 –> 00:21:59.890
actually I just saw on just the other day for

00:21:59.890 –> 00:22:02.650
4 ,000 pounds, a tie up between a pushchair brand

00:22:02.650 –> 00:22:05.029
and Lamborghini. They’d done this kind of co

00:22:05.029 –> 00:22:08.029
-branded pushchair. It was crazy. But the thing

00:22:08.029 –> 00:22:10.190
is about that product, you know, people are seen

00:22:10.190 –> 00:22:13.190
pushing it and want to be seen pushing the right

00:22:13.190 –> 00:22:15.369
one and want people to know how much money they’ve

00:22:15.369 –> 00:22:18.440
spent. And I think the thing about the… your

00:22:18.440 –> 00:22:20.240
example with a vacuum cleaner is people don’t

00:22:20.240 –> 00:22:22.359
see that it’s in a cupboard so you know why would

00:22:22.359 –> 00:22:25.259
you spend kind of more on it there’s another

00:22:25.259 –> 00:22:27.640
big question in this question which is you know

00:22:27.640 –> 00:22:30.700
are those expensive vacuum cleaners really such

00:22:30.700 –> 00:22:35.240
a step up um that it’s worth that money or did

00:22:35.240 –> 00:22:37.259
people want to be talking in the coffee shop

00:22:37.259 –> 00:22:38.759
with their mates about the fact they just bought

00:22:38.759 –> 00:22:40.920
this amazing new vacuum cleaner and it does this

00:22:40.920 –> 00:22:42.279
that and the other and you wouldn’t believe it

00:22:42.279 –> 00:22:44.539
and it it cost this amount but you know we could

00:22:44.539 –> 00:22:46.829
afford it And I don’t know the answer to that

00:22:46.829 –> 00:22:49.630
as a product designer, to be honest. But I probably

00:22:49.630 –> 00:22:52.250
ought to. I think there’s a lovely tension here

00:22:52.250 –> 00:22:55.430
in that cans are considered to be very cheap.

00:22:55.450 –> 00:22:58.329
And you think the classic Andy Warhol picture

00:22:58.329 –> 00:23:00.569
of all the Campbell’s soup. And that was inspired

00:23:00.569 –> 00:23:02.630
by the fact that he grew up very poor and they

00:23:02.630 –> 00:23:05.829
were very cheap. And because they’re considered…

00:23:06.329 –> 00:23:09.210
a low -cost, convenient food, the tin opener

00:23:09.210 –> 00:23:11.630
is then associated with that. And in fact, we

00:23:11.630 –> 00:23:13.509
heard, you know, at the Great Exhibition, you

00:23:13.509 –> 00:23:15.410
could buy turtle soup in this, you know, really

00:23:15.410 –> 00:23:18.630
premium foods in it. So I wonder if that’s where

00:23:18.630 –> 00:23:20.410
the innovation needs to happen first, that the

00:23:20.410 –> 00:23:23.529
can needs to be re -elevated before the can opener

00:23:23.529 –> 00:23:27.190
can become the kitchen aid of can openers. Yeah,

00:23:27.210 –> 00:23:30.029
you may well be right. And my hope would be that

00:23:30.029 –> 00:23:33.029
as we move away from plastics and as we get more

00:23:33.029 –> 00:23:35.730
concerned about microplastics in all of our brains,

00:23:35.920 –> 00:23:38.339
now and all that kind of stuff that maybe we

00:23:38.339 –> 00:23:40.400
will move to something that is inherently more

00:23:40.400 –> 00:23:44.420
recyclable um and and i’d love to see some food

00:23:44.420 –> 00:23:46.640
brands going you know we’re only putting our

00:23:46.640 –> 00:23:50.319
stuff in tins um you know rather than than plastic

00:23:50.319 –> 00:23:52.460
because i think tin is and metal is still associated

00:23:52.460 –> 00:23:55.559
with a higher value than plastic and so hopefully

00:23:55.559 –> 00:23:58.559
maybe there’ll be a premiumization there and

00:23:58.559 –> 00:24:00.599
then maybe the can opener can come off the back

00:24:00.599 –> 00:24:03.400
of that in terms of its kind of premium nature

00:24:03.400 –> 00:24:06.130
as well so it’s almost like the craft beer, you

00:24:06.130 –> 00:24:09.809
know, how that’s gone from bottles into beautifully

00:24:09.809 –> 00:24:12.569
crafted cans with wonderful artwork. And that’s

00:24:12.569 –> 00:24:15.150
really lifted that category. Whether they’re

00:24:15.150 –> 00:24:17.269
ring pulls or not might be the question, whether

00:24:17.269 –> 00:24:18.950
you need the tin opener. Yeah, that was actually

00:24:18.950 –> 00:24:20.970
one of the questions I had for you, Ben. Oh,

00:24:20.970 –> 00:24:22.730
go on, go for that, go for that. Would you rather

00:24:22.730 –> 00:24:25.450
have been the patent holder on the can opener

00:24:25.450 –> 00:24:28.509
or the patent holder of the ring pull? Oh, the

00:24:28.509 –> 00:24:31.450
ring pull. Yeah, the ring pull. And the ring

00:24:31.450 –> 00:24:34.940
pull’s fascinating because, You’ve got to get

00:24:34.940 –> 00:24:37.099
it cheap. It’s mass manufactured. You can license

00:24:37.099 –> 00:24:39.720
it to everybody and you get it out much easier.

00:24:39.779 –> 00:24:42.740
And I think massive canning lines, because they’re

00:24:42.740 –> 00:24:45.559
producing big volume, it’s much easier to put

00:24:45.559 –> 00:24:47.880
that innovation on that line than it is to get

00:24:47.880 –> 00:24:50.660
a single beautiful tin opener that you might

00:24:50.660 –> 00:24:53.039
buy once when you do your kitchen or once when

00:24:53.039 –> 00:24:56.779
you move out of home through all of the retailer

00:24:56.779 –> 00:25:00.559
channels. So I think although the new tin opener,

00:25:00.700 –> 00:25:03.690
the future tin opener will be amazing. financially,

00:25:03.869 –> 00:25:05.990
the ring pool is definitely the better innovation

00:25:05.990 –> 00:25:08.670
and the bigger impact you can have. Yeah, I think

00:25:08.670 –> 00:25:11.910
I completely agree. But what’s interesting is

00:25:11.910 –> 00:25:15.849
in my work with D2M, as the founder of that business,

00:25:16.170 –> 00:25:19.549
we’ve worked with 1600 odd clients over the last

00:25:19.549 –> 00:25:22.329
kind of 15 years. And none of them have come

00:25:22.329 –> 00:25:25.069
with something really unglamorous and unsexy

00:25:25.069 –> 00:25:28.849
like a ring pool. They all want the amazing innovation

00:25:28.849 –> 00:25:30.789
that it’s got all these bells and whistles on

00:25:30.789 –> 00:25:33.250
it and all this kind of stuff. Whereas actually,

00:25:33.369 –> 00:25:35.730
a lot of the time, the money is in the mundane,

00:25:35.890 –> 00:25:37.789
isn’t it? I think that’s why we’re doing this

00:25:37.789 –> 00:25:40.950
podcast as well, because, you know, we’re creative

00:25:40.950 –> 00:25:43.450
people. We’re very good at coming up with the

00:25:43.450 –> 00:25:45.869
brilliant new ideas and sexy, you know, products.

00:25:47.230 –> 00:25:49.710
The stuff that has a real impact on the world

00:25:49.710 –> 00:25:52.250
is the zipper, you know, YKK, that type of thing.

00:25:52.710 –> 00:25:56.990
And those ideas are really hot. That’s where

00:25:56.990 –> 00:25:58.369
they’re all challenging. They’re really hard

00:25:58.369 –> 00:26:00.029
engineering -wise, really hard business -wise,

00:26:00.049 –> 00:26:02.710
and really hard design -wise. But they have such

00:26:02.710 –> 00:26:06.450
a massive impact and wouldn’t it be great to

00:26:06.450 –> 00:26:08.509
do one of those and come up with the spoon or

00:26:08.509 –> 00:26:10.410
the fork or something that everyone uses? Yeah,

00:26:10.410 –> 00:26:13.069
no, clearly it would be amazing. And I think

00:26:13.069 –> 00:26:14.569
that’s the other thing is that people don’t necessarily

00:26:14.569 –> 00:26:16.569
realise that something like the ring pull or

00:26:16.569 –> 00:26:19.930
the zipper has probably got 10 times as much

00:26:19.930 –> 00:26:23.410
cost to develop as something that’s much more

00:26:23.410 –> 00:26:26.349
on the front of it technically complicated because

00:26:26.349 –> 00:26:28.789
you’ve got to get the commercials of it down

00:26:28.789 –> 00:26:32.839
pat. because it’s got to be so cheap and so reliable

00:26:32.839 –> 00:26:36.519
every single time. But that costs a huge amount

00:26:36.519 –> 00:26:38.700
of money because you’re going through constant

00:26:38.700 –> 00:26:41.759
iterations to nail that design down. And guys,

00:26:41.920 –> 00:26:44.779
that’s why we love design. That’s why we love

00:26:44.779 –> 00:26:47.180
design. Phil, that was brilliant. Thank you.

00:26:47.640 –> 00:26:50.160
Now we’re going to switch to look at the future

00:26:50.160 –> 00:26:52.420
of tin openers and introduce our guest, Robert

00:26:52.420 –> 00:26:56.339
Van Varick. Hi, Rob. Welcome to the show. Where

00:26:56.339 –> 00:26:59.539
are you, first of all? I am calling in from the

00:26:59.539 –> 00:27:02.740
east coast of the United States. I’m in Bucks

00:27:02.740 –> 00:27:06.259
County, Pennsylvania, which is just north of

00:27:06.259 –> 00:27:10.019
Philadelphia. Is it a big area of tin can consumption?

00:27:10.140 –> 00:27:12.900
That’s the most important question. I mean, isn’t

00:27:12.900 –> 00:27:17.299
all of America? I think, you know, I think we

00:27:17.299 –> 00:27:20.339
love our canned food. Maybe less so these days,

00:27:20.359 –> 00:27:23.269
but yeah. So, Rob. First, can you introduce yourself

00:27:23.269 –> 00:27:26.970
to everybody? Absolutely. So I am the Chief Design

00:27:26.970 –> 00:27:30.410
Officer at Michael Graves Design. Michael Graves

00:27:30.410 –> 00:27:35.289
Design is a storied design house and consumer

00:27:35.289 –> 00:27:39.349
brand as well that has really been transformative

00:27:39.349 –> 00:27:43.150
in the world of design over the last many decades,

00:27:43.250 –> 00:27:45.730
four decades at least. We’ve created some of

00:27:45.730 –> 00:27:48.579
the most… iconic products that people use in

00:27:48.579 –> 00:27:53.160
their everyday lives and we really love uncovering

00:27:53.160 –> 00:27:56.279
those sort of opportunities in the sort of humble

00:27:56.279 –> 00:27:59.779
everyday objects that tend to go overlooked which

00:27:59.779 –> 00:28:02.319
is why i believe you reached out to me for our

00:28:02.319 –> 00:28:05.559
conversation today so i’m really excited to be

00:28:05.559 –> 00:28:07.440
here thank you for having me you’ve designed

00:28:07.440 –> 00:28:09.819
lots of different products for you what’s the

00:28:09.819 –> 00:28:12.680
one that you felt has been the biggest impact

00:28:12.680 –> 00:28:14.619
the one that you’re most proud of particularly

00:28:15.549 –> 00:28:18.650
If it was overlooked? Oh, wow. Well, there’s

00:28:18.650 –> 00:28:21.509
a lot to unpack in that question. I’ve worked

00:28:21.509 –> 00:28:24.430
on hundreds and hundreds of products over the

00:28:24.430 –> 00:28:26.809
time that we’ve been there. And some of the top

00:28:26.809 –> 00:28:29.630
hits I would say would be our transport chair

00:28:29.630 –> 00:28:32.430
with Stryker Medical that’s designed specifically

00:28:32.430 –> 00:28:35.269
for the hospital environment. It’s not every

00:28:35.269 –> 00:28:39.509
day that you get to sort of reinvent such a sort

00:28:39.509 –> 00:28:42.569
of archetypal product as the wheelchair. but

00:28:42.569 –> 00:28:45.630
also just the time spent working on housewares

00:28:45.630 –> 00:28:49.269
for companies like Target. And we just got to

00:28:49.269 –> 00:28:51.710
design so many things. So, you know, my first

00:28:51.710 –> 00:28:54.869
products that I patented were done for Target

00:28:54.869 –> 00:28:58.250
and were in and out of the store in a blink.

00:28:58.529 –> 00:29:02.670
So there was a lot of learning about how innovation

00:29:02.670 –> 00:29:06.049
performs at the shelf. So, you know, if somebody’s

00:29:06.049 –> 00:29:07.609
looking at something new and they’ve never seen

00:29:07.609 –> 00:29:09.660
it before. They’re just going to move right on.

00:29:09.740 –> 00:29:13.240
It was a really good education in terms of understanding

00:29:13.240 –> 00:29:16.880
the constraints of where something’s sold, who

00:29:16.880 –> 00:29:20.019
the customer is, what the price point is, which

00:29:20.019 –> 00:29:24.079
we can dive into. But more and more, what we’re

00:29:24.079 –> 00:29:26.900
really proud of is this focus on us being the

00:29:26.900 –> 00:29:29.900
most accessible design brand. And we are looking

00:29:29.900 –> 00:29:33.700
at everything through that filter of physical

00:29:33.700 –> 00:29:37.839
accessibility, financial accessibility. And even,

00:29:37.900 –> 00:29:40.519
you know, what Michael started his career on

00:29:40.519 –> 00:29:44.079
and made his name in was humanism. But what we

00:29:44.079 –> 00:29:46.400
like to sort of refer to it as like cognitive

00:29:46.400 –> 00:29:48.339
accessibility. It was just that you looked at

00:29:48.339 –> 00:29:50.160
something, you understand what it was. When you

00:29:50.160 –> 00:29:52.599
talk about the cognitive, I always think about

00:29:52.599 –> 00:29:55.420
the handle on the door that says push. And you

00:29:55.420 –> 00:29:57.160
always pull it. You always pull it. It doesn’t

00:29:57.160 –> 00:29:59.700
matter if it says push. It’s instinctive design.

00:29:59.980 –> 00:30:02.480
This episode’s about the tin opener, the can

00:30:02.480 –> 00:30:06.039
opener. Is it tin or can in the US? We do call

00:30:06.039 –> 00:30:10.039
it a can opener, but I can call it a tin opener.

00:30:10.220 –> 00:30:15.039
I love that. But if I slip up and call it a can

00:30:15.039 –> 00:30:17.920
opener, you know why. So the most important question

00:30:17.920 –> 00:30:24.240
for me is, are you an on top or on the side tin

00:30:24.240 –> 00:30:28.119
opener? So, you know, such a fascinating question.

00:30:31.289 –> 00:30:35.329
I even tracked down. It’s not mine. It’s my business

00:30:35.329 –> 00:30:37.410
partner, Donald Strum, who’s our president, who

00:30:37.410 –> 00:30:40.710
has worked at our company for over 40 years now.

00:30:40.950 –> 00:30:44.250
But this was the original Target can opener,

00:30:44.509 –> 00:30:49.250
which is not much different from OXO’s can opener,

00:30:49.390 –> 00:30:51.529
which this has been in my drawer for probably

00:30:51.529 –> 00:30:56.450
25 years now. So this is on the side. And a lot

00:30:56.450 –> 00:30:59.730
of it’s because I don’t open a lot of cans. It

00:30:59.730 –> 00:31:02.910
really has more recently come to our attention,

00:31:03.029 –> 00:31:05.069
especially through that like accessibility lens

00:31:05.069 –> 00:31:10.369
of the on top one and how just like having one

00:31:10.369 –> 00:31:13.470
handle and not having to like have that grasping

00:31:13.470 –> 00:31:17.250
motion that this is so much easier to just sort

00:31:17.250 –> 00:31:19.289
of put it on the can and then just start to like

00:31:19.289 –> 00:31:22.670
turn and magically it cuts through the side of

00:31:22.670 –> 00:31:25.930
the can. I don’t know. I think my now that I

00:31:25.930 –> 00:31:29.019
have this this new one, I’m going to be. trying

00:31:29.019 –> 00:31:31.400
that out and using that more often. It’s fascinating.

00:31:31.480 –> 00:31:33.599
You talked about accessibility almost straight

00:31:33.599 –> 00:31:35.160
away with that. And it fits really well with

00:31:35.160 –> 00:31:38.059
the Michael Graves premise, doesn’t it? One hand

00:31:38.059 –> 00:31:41.779
being easy to turn. These are simple things.

00:31:41.900 –> 00:31:44.380
Given the kind of thousands of products that

00:31:44.380 –> 00:31:46.200
you’ve worked on, and I don’t know how many tin

00:31:46.200 –> 00:31:49.720
openers specifically you’ve designed, but have

00:31:49.720 –> 00:31:52.500
we reached kind of the pinnacle of design of

00:31:52.500 –> 00:31:56.299
the tin opener? I can confidently say no, we

00:31:56.299 –> 00:32:00.880
haven’t. And I say that because we’re working

00:32:00.880 –> 00:32:03.299
on a new one. It probably won’t like kind of

00:32:03.299 –> 00:32:06.240
hit where you guys are thinking of like, you

00:32:06.240 –> 00:32:08.400
know, where things could go technological wise.

00:32:09.000 –> 00:32:11.880
But I think there still is space, especially

00:32:11.880 –> 00:32:15.099
from an accessibility standpoint. I grew up with

00:32:15.099 –> 00:32:17.440
an electric can opener in my kitchen. It was

00:32:17.440 –> 00:32:20.599
a installation there. So whenever you had to

00:32:20.599 –> 00:32:23.660
open a can, it was so simple. But now it’s like,

00:32:23.700 –> 00:32:25.480
who’s going to use up counter space for that

00:32:25.480 –> 00:32:28.470
object? Which is too bad because we designed

00:32:28.470 –> 00:32:31.450
one in the early days for JCPenney. It only made

00:32:31.450 –> 00:32:33.430
it as a concept. It never made it to market.

00:32:33.549 –> 00:32:36.369
But it was one of probably one of my favorite

00:32:36.369 –> 00:32:38.529
objects from that collaboration. But it never

00:32:38.529 –> 00:32:41.210
saw the light of day. And it just, man, it had

00:32:41.210 –> 00:32:46.089
so much personality. But I think to answer your

00:32:46.089 –> 00:32:48.670
question more specifically, we’re always going

00:32:48.670 –> 00:32:53.440
to see advancement in these products. It’s just

00:32:53.440 –> 00:32:56.319
always it’s hard to predict where that advancement

00:32:56.319 –> 00:32:59.799
is going to be. The pop tops of cans sort of

00:32:59.799 –> 00:33:02.660
eliminates the need for a can opener. So it becomes

00:33:02.660 –> 00:33:05.380
more of a commodity item. People stop innovating

00:33:05.380 –> 00:33:08.960
as much on it. Similar to how we saw the integration

00:33:08.960 –> 00:33:13.900
of ice dispensers on refrigerators really kill

00:33:13.900 –> 00:33:18.029
the. ice tray design ethos and advancement you

00:33:18.029 –> 00:33:19.829
know like that used to be a fun object that people

00:33:19.829 –> 00:33:21.710
were like how else could we make it easy to get

00:33:21.710 –> 00:33:23.430
ice cubes out of a tray and then someone was

00:33:23.430 –> 00:33:24.950
like we’re just going to make them come out of

00:33:24.950 –> 00:33:28.769
the refrigerator and they were like oh that’s

00:33:28.769 –> 00:33:31.910
that’s really smart i think innovation oftentimes

00:33:31.910 –> 00:33:36.630
we innovate tools out of existence but a can

00:33:36.630 –> 00:33:38.970
opener is one of those like foundational items

00:33:38.970 –> 00:33:42.539
that I think will be around for a long, long

00:33:42.539 –> 00:33:45.160
time. Because I think as you pointed out, like

00:33:45.160 –> 00:33:47.299
there’s still just going to be the need for like

00:33:47.299 –> 00:33:50.279
a low cost can that doesn’t invest in that extra

00:33:50.279 –> 00:33:53.259
material and money to peel the top off. So you

00:33:53.259 –> 00:33:55.200
got to find a way to open it. And it’s in your

00:33:55.200 –> 00:33:57.160
best interest to have a tool to be able to do

00:33:57.160 –> 00:33:58.960
that. That isn’t just, you know, a hammer and

00:33:58.960 –> 00:34:01.319
chisel. Ben’s got a fantastic idea that he wants

00:34:01.319 –> 00:34:04.920
to run past you as an expert in tin opener design.

00:34:05.859 –> 00:34:09.199
Do you want to share it? This is the inventor,

00:34:09.300 –> 00:34:13.059
isn’t it? We cut steel in our factories using

00:34:13.059 –> 00:34:16.619
lasers. We have laser cut for steel up to really

00:34:16.619 –> 00:34:20.550
thick steel. Why isn’t there a laser cutting

00:34:20.550 –> 00:34:23.909
for the tin opener? You put it on, it zaps the

00:34:23.909 –> 00:34:26.349
lid, holds the lid with a magnet, and you just

00:34:26.349 –> 00:34:29.090
pop it in recycling. There’s no swerve. There’s

00:34:29.090 –> 00:34:33.110
no beans being stuck everywhere. Why? Why is

00:34:33.110 –> 00:34:35.849
it not there? Ben, you put me in a hard position

00:34:35.849 –> 00:34:39.170
because I don’t like being the naysayer when

00:34:39.170 –> 00:34:41.690
we’re brainstorming. You’re going to be the dream

00:34:41.690 –> 00:34:44.909
killer, aren’t you? I feel like I’m going to.

00:34:45.389 –> 00:34:48.349
You know what? I think that one is an answer

00:34:48.349 –> 00:34:51.590
that just comes down to cost and technology and

00:34:51.590 –> 00:34:55.389
the investment to get that technology small enough

00:34:55.389 –> 00:34:58.889
at just the right size and just the right power.

00:35:00.289 –> 00:35:03.889
I think what it would need is… something more

00:35:03.889 –> 00:35:05.869
than just cutting through a can you know like

00:35:05.869 –> 00:35:08.489
i feel like it could cook the beans it could

00:35:08.489 –> 00:35:10.889
cut the can and then now we’re talking the beans

00:35:10.889 –> 00:35:13.449
yeah this is why you never invite designers to

00:35:13.449 –> 00:35:16.090
a brainstorm you know guys this is classic but

00:35:16.090 –> 00:35:21.010
i think trees much the way the can took off as

00:35:21.010 –> 00:35:24.650
an innovation was because it was needed to fuel

00:35:24.650 –> 00:35:28.130
armies you know it was needed to fuel navies

00:35:28.130 –> 00:35:32.250
um And so there was enough of a market size to

00:35:32.250 –> 00:35:35.469
really promote that level of investment and innovation

00:35:35.469 –> 00:35:39.349
and that investment in capital equipment. All

00:35:39.349 –> 00:35:41.869
it takes is a tinkerer, you know, somebody who’s

00:35:41.869 –> 00:35:43.849
going to sit there and like work on making this

00:35:43.849 –> 00:35:47.840
happen. It could be a 16 -year -old. you know,

00:35:47.840 –> 00:35:50.880
at a tech school who’s like, I did it. I’ve figured

00:35:50.880 –> 00:35:53.559
it out. It’s not just about the invention. Yes,

00:35:53.639 –> 00:35:55.940
we can make a better tin opener, but you’ve got

00:35:55.940 –> 00:35:57.980
to tell people about it, whether it’s at Target

00:35:57.980 –> 00:36:01.320
or whatever the channel is. You’ve got to market

00:36:01.320 –> 00:36:03.539
it. There’s got to be a big enough business case

00:36:03.539 –> 00:36:05.400
to warrant that investment, both the design and

00:36:05.400 –> 00:36:09.300
the capital and the marketing. And that market’s

00:36:09.300 –> 00:36:10.860
got to be really appealing for us to warrant

00:36:10.860 –> 00:36:13.380
that change. And is that one of the reasons why

00:36:13.380 –> 00:36:17.500
the tin opener’s kind of stagnated? aside from

00:36:17.500 –> 00:36:19.760
the aging population and maybe the questions

00:36:19.760 –> 00:36:22.420
around sustainability, that there isn’t that

00:36:22.420 –> 00:36:25.340
market pool to kind of warrant the lasers and

00:36:25.340 –> 00:36:27.880
the diamond -cutted blades or whatever might

00:36:27.880 –> 00:36:31.880
be the next innovation? I think so. And it’s

00:36:31.880 –> 00:36:34.960
a mixture of that the market isn’t there as much

00:36:34.960 –> 00:36:39.639
as there is also opportunity elsewhere that people

00:36:39.639 –> 00:36:42.380
are going to focus on. And it’s just not the

00:36:42.380 –> 00:36:47.519
shiny object. But to me, that’s always where

00:36:47.519 –> 00:36:51.219
something is ripe for innovation. You know, something’s

00:36:51.219 –> 00:36:53.719
ripe for something new is when it stagnates and

00:36:53.719 –> 00:36:57.300
people are overlooking it. Then a company gets

00:36:57.300 –> 00:36:58.960
the opportunity to come along and rethink it.

00:36:59.019 –> 00:37:04.000
But to your point, Ben, marketing is so fun.

00:37:04.059 –> 00:37:06.880
So I talked about my first patent. It was for

00:37:06.880 –> 00:37:09.360
some tongs. I have them. They’re here. These

00:37:09.360 –> 00:37:12.960
are the tongs, right? You know, it was this fun

00:37:12.960 –> 00:37:16.809
project. And I remember driving from, where I

00:37:16.809 –> 00:37:19.170
live north of Philadelphia down to DC to visit

00:37:19.170 –> 00:37:21.349
my sister. And that drive, I was just thinking

00:37:21.349 –> 00:37:23.429
about tongs and just thinking about other objects

00:37:23.429 –> 00:37:27.829
that close, but don’t like have anything to pop

00:37:27.829 –> 00:37:30.489
open. And I thought about nail clippers and how

00:37:30.489 –> 00:37:32.150
like nail clippers have that fun sort of twist

00:37:32.150 –> 00:37:34.829
around handle and it folds down and they’re closed.

00:37:35.010 –> 00:37:36.570
I’m like, well, why can’t we do something like

00:37:36.570 –> 00:37:39.349
that? And so that was really the impetus to these.

00:37:39.929 –> 00:37:42.210
And so when you’re done with these, you just

00:37:42.210 –> 00:37:45.699
twist that. black heart and it nests in there.

00:37:45.880 –> 00:37:48.179
And so it’s never going to come apart. And it

00:37:48.179 –> 00:37:50.179
was like, we were all so excited about this guys.

00:37:50.219 –> 00:37:52.260
We were like, this is genius. We are going to

00:37:52.260 –> 00:37:54.739
make so much money off of this. We patented it.

00:37:54.900 –> 00:37:57.260
And it was in and out of the store in a year

00:37:57.260 –> 00:38:00.179
because we would walk into the store and find

00:38:00.179 –> 00:38:02.920
these things just like pulled apart and bent

00:38:02.920 –> 00:38:05.139
because people didn’t understand it. It was a

00:38:05.139 –> 00:38:09.820
hard lesson in innovation requires education.

00:38:10.659 –> 00:38:13.409
And the more you’re going to innovate. the more

00:38:13.409 –> 00:38:15.750
you’re going to have to educate. Rob, you talked

00:38:15.750 –> 00:38:18.380
about, you know… what makes it to the top of

00:38:18.380 –> 00:38:19.900
the list in terms of what you’re going to work

00:38:19.900 –> 00:38:22.719
on next um and that’s fascinating for me because

00:38:22.719 –> 00:38:25.019
you know we’ve we’ve worked on you know nearly

00:38:25.019 –> 00:38:28.860
2 000 products as a design agency and we’re constantly

00:38:28.860 –> 00:38:31.099
being that dream killer for people and going

00:38:31.099 –> 00:38:32.980
look i’m really sorry but you haven’t thought

00:38:32.980 –> 00:38:34.760
about the fact yes that’s the most amazing thing

00:38:34.760 –> 00:38:37.300
ever but it’s going to cost 300 000 pounds just

00:38:37.300 –> 00:38:39.139
to tool it you know and all this kind of stuff

00:38:39.139 –> 00:38:42.219
so what makes it to the top of your list when

00:38:42.219 –> 00:38:44.659
you guys go yes that that’s a winner that’s what

00:38:44.659 –> 00:38:47.550
we’re going to work on next I mean, it’s a great

00:38:47.550 –> 00:38:51.329
question. And there is a pretty straightforward

00:38:51.329 –> 00:38:55.510
list of constraints, one of which you just touched

00:38:55.510 –> 00:38:59.730
on is tooling. So, you know, we’re pursuing a

00:38:59.730 –> 00:39:02.969
new line of gadgets, and we’ve budgeted, you

00:39:02.969 –> 00:39:04.989
know, a certain amount of money for tooling.

00:39:05.150 –> 00:39:07.750
But then in doing so, we’re, you know, we have

00:39:07.750 –> 00:39:11.050
a strategic partner that we’re going to launch

00:39:11.050 –> 00:39:14.210
it with, and that’s going to help with the marketing.

00:39:16.279 –> 00:39:19.380
So that’s a big lift. That’s a big investment.

00:39:19.500 –> 00:39:22.239
That’s where we look for partnerships in doing

00:39:22.239 –> 00:39:24.420
it. But on items that we’re like, hey, could

00:39:24.420 –> 00:39:27.219
we bring this to market ourselves? We have to

00:39:27.219 –> 00:39:30.659
think about tooling. We have to think about inventory.

00:39:31.980 –> 00:39:34.719
We have to think about just the competitive landscape.

00:39:34.820 –> 00:39:38.539
Who are we up against? Designers love furniture,

00:39:38.719 –> 00:39:42.590
but furniture is like the most. competitive,

00:39:42.829 –> 00:39:45.909
like saturated market, there’s so much furniture

00:39:45.909 –> 00:39:48.130
out there to choose from. So we’re always looking

00:39:48.130 –> 00:39:51.710
for these kind of what we term opportunity gaps,

00:39:51.889 –> 00:39:55.050
where when we’re meeting with people, when we’re

00:39:55.050 –> 00:39:57.869
spending time with users in their home, which

00:39:57.869 –> 00:40:00.530
is a big part of our approach, you know, we just

00:40:00.530 –> 00:40:04.769
spend a lot of time in people’s homes, invited,

00:40:04.949 –> 00:40:09.769
of course, but Sometimes not. Sometimes you’re

00:40:09.769 –> 00:40:12.750
at someone’s house making notes on how they use

00:40:12.750 –> 00:40:15.010
a tin opener. I’m not allowed to go to Nebraska

00:40:15.010 –> 00:40:19.329
anymore. But no, it’s, you know, it’s just you

00:40:19.329 –> 00:40:21.530
spend time and we’re usually there to ask them

00:40:21.530 –> 00:40:25.949
about one topic, one area. But we’re really eyes

00:40:25.949 –> 00:40:27.730
wide open when we’re there and we’re looking

00:40:27.730 –> 00:40:30.670
at everything. We’re looking at their space and

00:40:30.670 –> 00:40:35.010
we’ll often go off on tangents because opportunities

00:40:35.010 –> 00:40:40.070
really are everywhere. it takes this really kind

00:40:40.070 –> 00:40:44.130
of magical blend of looking for something that

00:40:44.130 –> 00:40:47.630
nobody’s doing, but doing it in a way that’s

00:40:47.630 –> 00:40:50.690
going to be like easy to grasp and easy to understand.

00:40:51.909 –> 00:40:54.849
And that’s really the sort of like mix that we’re

00:40:54.849 –> 00:40:57.369
always looking for. People always talk about

00:40:57.369 –> 00:41:00.590
wanting something to be intuitive, but they also

00:41:00.590 –> 00:41:02.889
want it to be innovative. And we’re like, well,

00:41:02.929 –> 00:41:05.969
those are two very different things because intuition.

00:41:07.039 –> 00:41:10.480
isn’t a real thing. It’s intuition is a learned

00:41:10.480 –> 00:41:13.239
experience that you have learned how something

00:41:13.239 –> 00:41:16.320
works by seeing it done before. You know, we

00:41:16.320 –> 00:41:18.780
know to push buttons because we’ve grown up pushing

00:41:18.780 –> 00:41:21.719
buttons. For us, we’re always looking at this,

00:41:21.739 –> 00:41:24.739
this learning curve. And we’re looking for opportunities

00:41:24.739 –> 00:41:27.420
that are more down at the like low end of that

00:41:27.420 –> 00:41:32.019
learning curve, leveraging known behaviors, known

00:41:32.019 –> 00:41:35.239
rituals, you know, because changing habits and

00:41:35.239 –> 00:41:38.219
changing rituals, that’s where, that’s where

00:41:38.219 –> 00:41:41.019
you need a lot of marketing. You need a lot of

00:41:41.019 –> 00:41:43.539
buzz, you know, you need a lot of product placement

00:41:43.539 –> 00:41:46.039
and celebrity endorsement. And you got to get

00:41:46.039 –> 00:41:48.000
people to be like, have this fear of missing

00:41:48.000 –> 00:41:50.780
out of like, oh, well, I want to, I want to open

00:41:50.780 –> 00:41:53.880
my tins with lasers. I’m getting rid of this

00:41:53.880 –> 00:41:57.440
old mechanical thing. Did you guys hear they

00:41:57.440 –> 00:42:00.750
have lasers for this now? Seems like a real hazard

00:42:00.750 –> 00:42:03.309
with children, though, the lasers. Yeah, as you

00:42:03.309 –> 00:42:05.190
were talking, I was actually thinking about the

00:42:05.190 –> 00:42:08.510
regulatory challenges of lasers and tin openers.

00:42:09.050 –> 00:42:12.030
Yeah, I think that government agency is going

00:42:12.030 –> 00:42:17.949
to get that application. I am going to go away

00:42:17.949 –> 00:42:20.599
and do the calculations now, though. What’s next

00:42:20.599 –> 00:42:23.179
for the tin opener? If there was one thing you

00:42:23.179 –> 00:42:26.019
could do tomorrow to make the tin or the can

00:42:26.019 –> 00:42:30.039
or the food preservation perfect, what would

00:42:30.039 –> 00:42:32.280
it be? I think you’re going to see that from

00:42:32.280 –> 00:42:40.380
us in about a year. And man, but what a cliffhanger.

00:42:40.559 –> 00:42:45.639
So coming up in season two. I think the same

00:42:45.639 –> 00:42:47.980
opportunity exists for the tin opener as exists

00:42:47.980 –> 00:42:51.199
for so many other objects in our lives. And that

00:42:51.199 –> 00:42:54.280
is simply to look at making them better, making

00:42:54.280 –> 00:42:57.579
them easier to use and making them more delightful.

00:42:57.940 –> 00:43:00.840
You know, just we need more joy in our lives

00:43:00.840 –> 00:43:03.519
now more than ever. Please, people, make things

00:43:03.519 –> 00:43:06.789
more joyful. Rob, thank you so much for joining

00:43:06.789 –> 00:43:09.969
us. Phil, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Don’t

00:43:09.969 –> 00:43:13.889
forget to like, subscribe and tell your friends,

00:43:13.929 –> 00:43:17.530
please. You know, anyone who loves design, engineering

00:43:17.530 –> 00:43:20.309
and tin openers, they want to listen to this

00:43:20.309 –> 00:43:20.530
podcast.