Why the Backpack? From the frontier trek to the nearest bus stop

WEBVTT

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Hello, I’m Ben Diamond, an inventor of consumer

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products, and welcome to Why the Fork. You might

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be listening to this whilst commuting or out

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walking the dog, and the chances are you have

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with you a special product, one that’s changed

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our lives, but has very little attention. On

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Why the Fork, we want to know what’s behind these

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humble innovations, how designers and engineers

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have shaped them, and what social economic pressures,

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or friends, inspired them. Later, we’ll be chatting

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to some of the designers tasked with developing

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the next generation, carrying us into the future.

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This is a podcast by D2M Product Design, and

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we’ll be talking with Phil Staunton, our design

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expert, later. In this episode, Vikings, war,

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nylon, and a girlfriend with a sewing machine.

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It’s why. The modern backpack was only developed

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in the 1970s, but it has its roots in ancient

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times. Why did it take us so long for us to realise

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that carrying things on our back was such a great

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idea? And why, for most of history, did bags

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only have one strap? Ancient people had bags

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for a long time. Ossie the Iceman, who lived

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5 ,500 years ago and was preserved in ice near

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the Italian Alps, carried his possessions in

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a leather pouch and a quiver. Googling, you might

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read about him carrying a backpack, but it’s

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more likely to have been the remains of his snowshoes.

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For Bigelows, the ancient Greeks had a woven

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bag. containing games and gym kits made from

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finely woven reeds, but these are more like shoulder

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bags than purses. Early Roman bags were elaborate

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metal buckles and leather straps, but they preferred

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to sling their troop gear over one shoulder on

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a pole, like Dick Whittington or a hobo -style

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bindle on the end of a stick, because it’s a

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lot quicker to drop the pole for a good battle.

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W -shaped wooden frames across the back seem

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to have been the preferred method into the Middle

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Ages, leaning forward to balance the load and

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supported by your hands, so no high -fiving.

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And in Mendel’s Housebook from 1425, it illustrates

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heavy sacks being carried on the back and tied

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across the top shoulder with a rope, or a more

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rigid wooden assembly on two straps with a supporting

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stick. It’s actually not till later in the medieval

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times that we first see fabric bags being worn

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on two straps. Around this time, 1600s, the word

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knapsack was first used. Knap from the Germanic

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bite, probably because you had your lunch in.

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This might have just been for smaller leather

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or fabric bags rather than the big backpack.

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The Viking’s Gogstad was made of wood and reeds

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with two fabric straps, and versions of early

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external frames of wood and woven frames are

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found in Korea, Nepal, Ming China, the Nordics,

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Brazil, indigenous cultures of Mexico and North

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America, well, pretty much everywhere. This isn’t

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surprising. We all need to carry our gear, our

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kids and food, and so our back is a great place

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to do it. It feels more comfortable balancing

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the loads across the shoulders and allowing you

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to carry more. heavy and for longer. But wooden

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frames are very uncomfortable. So the Japanese

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wooden frame, Shiko, also have an underlayer

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vest made from woven straw. It’s the first backpack

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designed for comfort. So when do we start seeing

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something that we’d recognise as our backpack

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we shove our gear in? Well, in what’s becoming

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a theme for Why the Fork. It’s Napoleon again.

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Listen to our episode on the tin opener. It was

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his competition for better food that kick -started

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the tin can. It was his armies and that of neighbouring

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European countries that started the next phase.

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Soldiers needed to march further with more gear,

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carrying 40 kilograms into battle. To do this

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they needed a nifty way to keep it dry without

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interfering with their weapons. Unlike more modern

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warfare, where the heavy gear might have been

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deposited away from the front lines, The troops

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kept their knapsacks on their backs into the

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fray, and French troops were even ordered not

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to take off their knapsacks in combat. Being

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separated from your bag when your survival depended

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on what’s inside was far too important. You know,

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they carried stuff like capes and vests and breeches,

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buckles, undergarments, shirts, handkerchiefs,

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collars, stockings, gaiters, shoes, suspenders,

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bayonets, cartridge box and cartridges, a ballpollock,

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a flint, lead, grease. Canteen comb, toolbook,

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a braddle, button puller, marionette, brush for

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habits, shoes and copper, a great coat, bread

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for four days, meat for two, and a spoon. Zut

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alors! That’s a lot. I mean, I’m struggling to

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get my headphones in. in eighteen o nine british

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rifleman benjamin harris who survived the gruelling

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spain winter retreat described the load as almost

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being more than a man could manage the weight

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i toiled under was tremendous i am convinced

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that many of our infantry sank and died under

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the weight of their knapsacks alone i marched

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under a weight sufficient to impede the free

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motions of a donkey There are some beautiful

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photos of how this hasn’t changed much. Modern

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troops are being asked to carry lots of heavy

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equipment, all possible because of the backpacks.

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The knapsack on the back, with a separate shoulder

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-worn fabric haversack for your rations, was

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made of a furry, untanned leather hide. The French

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had a set of straps on the top to wrap the greatcoat

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to, and buckles with two white straps. With the

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British, you can open the entire bag like a suitcase,

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with leather straps holding the two separate

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parts together, rather than a pouch bag, and

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was standardised from as early as the 1770s.

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Later, the Trotter’s smarter standard British

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backpack included an interior wooden frame brace,

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lacquered sides with leather at the corners.

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These were reputed to be less comfortable and

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dug into the spine, causing restriction of movement.

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So the British… often nicked the more comfortable

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French knapsacks off the battlefield. Outside

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of the military campaigns and the external wood

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frame packs for carrying loads, we don’t see

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a lot of backpacks being used, and I struggle

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to find any historical records in fashion and

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industry. Now this is really unusual. Normally,

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military technology transfers to the domestic

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market. Why? Why did classical France and Britain

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not adopt it? In Pride and Prejudice, you don’t

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hear Mr Darcy and Elizabeth Bennet talking about

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that knapsack. Or the educated and skilled people

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capable of adapting a military backpack for daily

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use had servants, so didn’t carry anything. You’d

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use pack animals, horses with saddlebags, apprentices,

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children, labourers on carts for larger items

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and simpler bags for smaller ones. But it’s so

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useful. that I can’t help feeling I’m missing

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something. The traditional packs and external

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frames continued to be used to haul goods and

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a backpack only for the military. Then things

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changed. In the Americas, trackers rail -weld

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in timber work and in Europe, the age of colonisation.

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Colonel Henry Merriam. first experimented with

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heavy external metal frames in 1878 to move weight

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away from the back, but he didn’t feel very comfortable.

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Then Camille Poirier emigrated from French Canada

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and worked in leather goods, making the first

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bags for trackers and traders in the US in 1882,

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based on Henry’s design. You can still buy his

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Doolith pack number two today. To be frank, the

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design is not a big difference between theirs

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and the Napoleonic designs. Two straps, buckles,

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leather. But it was great for miners and rail

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workers, trappers and hunters and those exploring

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in the rugged North American country. The need

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to jump for military was exploration and adventures

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with durability in the design. Until now, the

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main body of the backpack was a single bag, sometimes

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with straps above and below for your great coat

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or bedroll. Then in 1914, for World War I, the

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haversack was developed, with separate pockets

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below the main pack for lighter gear, like a

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sleeping roll. Now this might not sound like

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a groundbreaking invention, but after 5 ,000

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years of carrying stuff in our backs, it marks

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a significant change. Being able to place the

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heavier items further up your back increased

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comfort, transferring the load through the body

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rather than pulling on the spine. That’s why

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my laptop keeps digging into the base of my spine

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and giving me such aggro. It needs to be higher

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up. A .K. Nordin, who founded the Fair Raven

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brand, also found this coming back from mountain

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trek in the 50s with backache and sewed a bag

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high on his back. He was probably the first person

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to design for comfort. Bending juniper branches

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and later tubular steel, Olly Bergman then made

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shape -fitting backpacks around 1908, based in

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part on the Nordic designs. And Jerry Cunningham,

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wanting to make his climbing pack lighter, fitted

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zippers for easy access in 1935. All great incremental

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steps towards the packs we have today. Now up

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until now, it’s leather, canvas and goat hide.

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But during World War II, silk parachutes were

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expensive and easily torn. so man -made fibres

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were developed to replace it. A flat weave of

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nylon and now recycled polyester, ripstop fabrics

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are an alternative to expensive silk parachutes

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and ubiquitous material for replacing canvas

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and leather in backpacks. Every 5 -8mm, a thicker

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man -made fibre, normally PET but could be ultra

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-strong Kevlar, is woven through the weave. This

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extra strength helps distribute loads in the

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bag and it prevents puncture holes from spreading.

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stopping the rip. Now in modern tents, jackets,

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hot air balloons and shorts, these fabrics are

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coated with breathable resins to wick away moisture

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and protect your valuables from water. In the

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1970s, camping, hiking and early backpacking

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around the world was becoming fashionable and

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accessible to more people. It’s here we see the

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first modern backpack emerge. It was Dick and

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Nina Carey. Inspired by watching a friend insert

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sticks into their walking trouser pockets to

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support their backpack, they added padded hip

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belts and contoured frames. Now these padded

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hips are the biggest step change in bags since

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the external indigenous frames. In the same way

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that the wooden frame distributed the weight

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and allowed you to carry more, the hip mounts

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transmit the bulk of the weight through your

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lower body avoiding pressure on your spine. Not

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only can you carry more, but it’s significantly

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more comfortable both moving and in your posture.

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It’s also why backpacks are gender specific.

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Women have hips, men longer bodies. So you either

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need a very adjustable back or separate men and

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women’s lines. Oh, and there was Greg Lowe, Lowe

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Alpine Lowe Pro, who took these cumbersome external

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metal frames and put them inside the bag. Strong

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enough to handle large loads and keep them stable,

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but comfortable. In the late 60s and early 70s,

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we now have the modern backpack, functional for

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the military, the hiker and the rugged worker.

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But why is it not everywhere? Sure, we occasionally

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see a leather satchel with some straps on her

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back. And then, in 1970, winning a design competition

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for Alcoa, student engineer Murray Pletz and

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his girlfriend Jan Lewis, who knew her way round

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a sewing machine, sewed modern nylon day packs

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for backpackers. These were based on Gerry Cunningham’s

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30 -year -old design of nylon and zips. They

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started to sell to hikers, but students began

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using them to carry their books around campus.

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This is in part because of the attractive and

00:12:37.559 –> 00:12:40.019
affordable colours, but it’s mainly because it

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was a damn sight easier to carry books on two

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light straps than have a bunch of them tied with

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a belt under your arm. Jan Sport and its sister

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brand, The North Face, was born. Earlier I asked

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why that the knapsack didn’t migrate from the

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Poland Wars to the everyday society. There’s

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a very fine photo of me with my mum on the way

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to my first day at school and I have a lovely

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leather satchel, not a backpack. So why? Why

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so long? Well, canvas or leather was expensive,

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the bags heavy and utilitarian and clasping books

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strapped to your chest like some 50s movie was,

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I don’t know, more romantic. Heavy college books.

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Now they were hard to carry. Backpacks were seen

00:13:26.889 –> 00:13:29.710
as technical, not for every day. Until Jan’s

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use of low -cost nylon and zips, the leap into

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mainstream wasn’t possible. It was the front

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panel, the cool design, the low cost and location

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that made the Jan Sport leap. Today, as we move

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from big books to carrying tech, the backpack

00:13:45.610 –> 00:13:48.649
is everywhere. School kids, smart business people,

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travellers and grannies. It’s these clever lead

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users, the innovators, where someone has had

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an extreme problem to solve, in war, climbing

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or college campuses, that then helped everyone.

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That’s what makes design so exciting. It’s really

00:14:04.700 –> 00:14:07.600
individual. It’s why we have so many backpacks

00:14:07.600 –> 00:14:12.500
in our house. I have counted 16. It took college

00:14:12.500 –> 00:14:14.559
students to make the leap from a bit of military

00:14:14.559 –> 00:14:16.940
and tracking kit to being a product that we have

00:14:16.940 –> 00:14:20.279
multiple ones in our home. and 100 years for

00:14:20.279 –> 00:14:22.539
us to jump from carrying stuff on our back to

00:14:22.539 –> 00:14:24.460
having the waist straps that allow large loads

00:14:24.460 –> 00:14:27.759
to be carried. The backpack is a journey from

00:14:27.759 –> 00:14:30.419
the woven bags of indigenous peoples across the

00:14:30.419 –> 00:14:33.399
world to the lightweight modern polyester packs

00:14:33.399 –> 00:14:39.759
that we use every day. It’s had so many incremental

00:14:39.759 –> 00:14:42.559
design innovations. There was something sexy

00:14:42.559 –> 00:14:45.200
about the ripstop webbing, the plastic clips

00:14:45.200 –> 00:14:47.639
and zippers that make the modern backpack cool.

00:14:48.090 –> 00:14:50.070
The neat little pockets for the doohickey you

00:14:50.070 –> 00:14:53.029
just have to carry. And, like the Napoleonic

00:14:53.029 –> 00:14:55.610
troops, knowing that you’ll have all the gear

00:14:55.610 –> 00:14:58.529
with you for the great trek outside to the bus

00:14:58.529 –> 00:15:01.649
stop. And that’s why the backpack will have such

00:15:01.649 –> 00:15:09.059
a bright, colourful and comfortable future. Now

00:15:09.059 –> 00:15:12.100
let’s find out more about the design of the backpacks.

00:15:12.240 –> 00:15:14.279
I’d like to introduce Phil Staunton, who’s our

00:15:14.279 –> 00:15:17.779
design expert from D2M. Hello, Phil. Hi, Ben.

00:15:18.039 –> 00:15:20.759
I can see, I know it’s a podcast, but I can see

00:15:20.759 –> 00:15:22.620
behind you there’s a whole range of beautiful

00:15:22.620 –> 00:15:25.500
backpacks. And I know our paths first crossed

00:15:25.500 –> 00:15:27.860
when we were looking for design experts in soft

00:15:27.860 –> 00:15:31.000
materials. Tell us a little bit about why designing

00:15:31.000 –> 00:15:34.100
backpacks is so important to you and why is it

00:15:34.100 –> 00:15:37.639
so hard? I think it’s hard for a variety of reasons.

00:15:38.299 –> 00:15:41.059
it’s something that is hugely ergonomic, it’s

00:15:41.059 –> 00:15:43.360
got to fit to you. But obviously, people vary

00:15:43.360 –> 00:15:45.919
hugely. So people’s kind of body shapes and heights

00:15:45.919 –> 00:15:47.500
and all that kind of stuff. So actually getting

00:15:47.500 –> 00:15:50.919
something that the vast majority of your customer

00:15:50.919 –> 00:15:54.720
base feels is comfortable is critical. And I

00:15:54.720 –> 00:15:57.100
think also with so many backpacks and things

00:15:57.100 –> 00:15:59.779
out there now, they are generally very specific

00:15:59.779 –> 00:16:02.960
and for very specific tasks. And then inevitably,

00:16:03.019 –> 00:16:05.679
the user has all sorts of requirements around

00:16:05.679 –> 00:16:07.720
that. And I remember looking at huge usually

00:16:07.720 –> 00:16:10.399
complex backpacks for people who wanted to transport

00:16:10.399 –> 00:16:13.220
camera gear with all these different compartments

00:16:13.220 –> 00:16:15.480
and things that kind of moved round so that you

00:16:15.480 –> 00:16:17.820
got access to lenses quickly and all this kind

00:16:17.820 –> 00:16:20.480
of stuff. And that obviously just brings in a

00:16:20.480 –> 00:16:23.639
huge amount of complexity. In our story, it took

00:16:23.639 –> 00:16:26.200
a really long time for the backpack to kind of

00:16:26.200 –> 00:16:29.639
move from the military use to, I guess, specialist

00:16:29.639 –> 00:16:32.100
use and then every day. Was that a surprise?

00:16:32.179 –> 00:16:36.009
Was that unusual for most designs? Yeah, and

00:16:36.009 –> 00:16:38.029
I was surprised about that. It seemed to take

00:16:38.029 –> 00:16:40.590
a long, long time. And people carry stuff all

00:16:40.590 –> 00:16:43.850
the time. So why would you not go, oh, that thing

00:16:43.850 –> 00:16:47.730
that’s kind of used by the military, we should

00:16:47.730 –> 00:16:50.889
use that for transporting, I don’t know, chickens

00:16:50.889 –> 00:16:55.889
to cook chicken or whatever. I don’t know. It’s

00:16:55.889 –> 00:16:58.149
skills things. I mean, I think we kind of hinted

00:16:58.149 –> 00:17:01.850
that the 1800s, most people carrying stuff didn’t

00:17:01.850 –> 00:17:03.570
have the skill to design something new. Do you

00:17:03.570 –> 00:17:06.329
think it needed? Designers like yourself to kind

00:17:06.329 –> 00:17:09.309
of create those chicken carrying camera backs.

00:17:11.369 –> 00:17:13.730
Yeah, and I think we’re seeing that as a bit

00:17:13.730 –> 00:17:16.150
of a recurring theme through these episodes.

00:17:16.630 –> 00:17:21.210
Actually, until educated, middle class people

00:17:21.210 –> 00:17:23.589
who actually use their hands and have the capability

00:17:23.589 –> 00:17:27.809
and tools and skills to innovate something until

00:17:27.809 –> 00:17:31.279
that they need it. And those type of people need

00:17:31.279 –> 00:17:33.839
the innovation. It just doesn’t happen. And so

00:17:33.839 –> 00:17:36.039
for you, where does the design of a new backpack

00:17:36.039 –> 00:17:38.259
start? Does somebody typically come with a prototype

00:17:38.259 –> 00:17:42.059
or a sketch? Or is it people approach you with,

00:17:42.279 –> 00:17:43.900
I don’t know, I want to be able to carry this

00:17:43.900 –> 00:17:48.700
and my pack doesn’t do that today? And it varies

00:17:48.700 –> 00:17:51.579
hugely. So one of the ones behind you is the

00:17:51.579 –> 00:17:53.880
Riot rucksack. And Sarah Giblin, who invented

00:17:53.880 –> 00:17:56.740
that, came to us with literally a sketch, a bit

00:17:56.740 –> 00:17:59.160
of a kind of back of an envelope type of thing.

00:17:59.319 –> 00:18:01.839
And we took it through the whole journey. And

00:18:01.839 –> 00:18:04.880
interestingly, she majored on the market research

00:18:04.880 –> 00:18:07.940
and ended up with about 1 ,000 people who she

00:18:07.940 –> 00:18:10.339
surveyed before every kind of design change as

00:18:10.339 –> 00:18:14.119
part of the process. So that was hugely her kind

00:18:14.119 –> 00:18:16.380
of focus and the way that she developed it, whereby

00:18:16.380 –> 00:18:18.079
other people to us as something that actually

00:18:18.079 –> 00:18:20.140
they’ve already prototyped with super glue and

00:18:20.140 –> 00:18:23.720
foam and whatever else and they just need that

00:18:23.720 –> 00:18:25.460
tech pack before it goes to the manufacturer

00:18:25.460 –> 00:18:28.380
so yeah we can kind of step in at any stage of

00:18:28.380 –> 00:18:30.259
the process really one of the odd things in our

00:18:30.259 –> 00:18:33.119
story was that it felt like it wasn’t until the

00:18:33.119 –> 00:18:35.779
70s that the backpack made this leap and and

00:18:35.779 –> 00:18:38.700
that was with jan sport and jan sport had a nylon

00:18:38.700 –> 00:18:40.599
backpack which were fairly common you know the

00:18:40.599 –> 00:18:42.740
design wasn’t new but it seemed to be that the

00:18:42.740 –> 00:18:46.279
channel was what allow them to jump into mainstream.

00:18:46.779 –> 00:18:49.519
Is that unusual in design? Is that a repeated

00:18:49.519 –> 00:18:52.359
pattern we’re seeing in backpacks and sportswear

00:18:52.359 –> 00:18:56.220
and things as well? I think that’s critical in

00:18:56.220 –> 00:18:58.680
terms of the product actually hitting the mainstream.

00:18:59.440 –> 00:19:02.240
It’s all very well having a great product, but

00:19:02.240 –> 00:19:05.579
unless actually you can get it… into the market

00:19:05.579 –> 00:19:07.920
effectively and have a clear route to market

00:19:07.920 –> 00:19:10.359
then inevitably it dies a death and actually

00:19:10.359 –> 00:19:12.619
what a lot of our clients get wrong is they overly

00:19:12.619 –> 00:19:15.759
focus on the design when actually the channel

00:19:15.759 –> 00:19:18.700
to market is just as critical if not way more

00:19:18.700 –> 00:19:21.759
so actually It seems to be a recurring theme

00:19:21.759 –> 00:19:23.640
in our stories as well. There seems to be a pattern

00:19:23.640 –> 00:19:25.619
that there’s big events that kind of cause the

00:19:25.619 –> 00:19:27.960
trigger, the military move. And then this last

00:19:27.960 –> 00:19:30.319
leg is the channel that these great innovations

00:19:30.319 –> 00:19:32.539
really only land because you found the right

00:19:32.539 –> 00:19:35.000
niche to talk to your customer. You mentioned

00:19:35.000 –> 00:19:37.200
ergonomics earlier. Can we expand on that? Is

00:19:37.200 –> 00:19:39.519
that the biggest challenge with the backpack

00:19:39.519 –> 00:19:41.680
that you’ve got people of different sizes and

00:19:41.680 –> 00:19:44.700
the genders make a big difference as well? And

00:19:44.700 –> 00:19:46.680
how do you kind of account for that as you’re

00:19:46.680 –> 00:19:49.740
doing design? Yeah, no doubt. That’s critical.

00:19:49.759 –> 00:19:51.480
But expanding on the ergonomics point, you know,

00:19:51.480 –> 00:19:53.200
the other thing is you’ve got to move with it

00:19:53.200 –> 00:19:55.460
with a backpack, which is quite different from

00:19:55.460 –> 00:19:58.579
a lot of things. So one of the big things we’ve

00:19:58.579 –> 00:20:00.460
looked at actually is in military applications.

00:20:01.200 –> 00:20:04.119
It’s about how you enable the person to go as

00:20:04.119 –> 00:20:07.789
far as possible in a. in a limited time frame

00:20:07.789 –> 00:20:11.470
so can you enable someone to do 28 miles in six

00:20:11.470 –> 00:20:14.049
hours you know rather than kind of 26 and that

00:20:14.049 –> 00:20:15.650
then all is all about fatigue and that’s then

00:20:15.650 –> 00:20:18.329
about how the backpack moves with the body how

00:20:18.329 –> 00:20:20.549
the weight is transferred to the hips so it’s

00:20:20.549 –> 00:20:22.910
not always all on the shoulders the hips were

00:20:22.910 –> 00:20:24.509
the big ones isn’t there with the positioning

00:20:24.509 –> 00:20:27.680
of the hips for the the weight yeah and fabric

00:20:27.680 –> 00:20:30.500
is great in a lot of ways it’s hugely flexible

00:20:30.500 –> 00:20:33.380
but that causes problems as well because sometimes

00:20:33.380 –> 00:20:35.640
you want real rigidity and if you are trying

00:20:35.640 –> 00:20:37.900
to transfer the weight to the hips then something

00:20:37.900 –> 00:20:40.539
in there has to be really rigid to enable that

00:20:40.539 –> 00:20:44.779
weight transfer and and often with backpack design

00:20:44.779 –> 00:20:46.640
we find anyway what we’re trying to do that the

00:20:46.640 –> 00:20:49.720
problem is it’s moving too much and we can’t

00:20:49.720 –> 00:20:51.599
get the rigidity that we need from the fabric

00:20:51.599 –> 00:20:54.059
and so then we’re looking at effectively composites

00:20:54.059 –> 00:20:57.150
how do you bring it metal or hard plastic elements

00:20:57.150 –> 00:20:59.250
to create the rigidity where you need it and

00:20:59.250 –> 00:21:02.890
that then brings in complexity is this what makes

00:21:02.890 –> 00:21:04.930
backpack design really unique so you’ve got you’ve

00:21:04.930 –> 00:21:07.549
got nylon and pet and all these other soft materials

00:21:07.549 –> 00:21:10.630
and then you’ve got on the other side aluminium

00:21:10.630 –> 00:21:13.109
steel plastics and things like that kind of doing

00:21:13.109 –> 00:21:15.349
the rigidity this kind of combination of materials

00:21:15.349 –> 00:21:18.730
is quite unusual in a in a design and and does

00:21:18.730 –> 00:21:20.509
that does that create any challenges for you

00:21:20.509 –> 00:21:23.500
as developers or I think it’s a challenge generally

00:21:23.500 –> 00:21:25.819
because then you need two skill sets when designing

00:21:25.819 –> 00:21:28.079
it. You really need a hard goods product designer

00:21:28.079 –> 00:21:29.779
who understands metals and plastics and injection

00:21:29.779 –> 00:21:31.700
molding and all that kind of stuff. And you need

00:21:31.700 –> 00:21:33.680
a soft goods designer who understands textiles

00:21:33.680 –> 00:21:37.740
and webbings and how things… move and change

00:21:37.740 –> 00:21:40.960
uh in the stitch um and yeah that’s one of the

00:21:40.960 –> 00:21:43.240
things that our team at d2m is really good at

00:21:43.240 –> 00:21:45.000
is because we have textile product developers

00:21:45.000 –> 00:21:46.640
and hardcore product developers who’ve worked

00:21:46.640 –> 00:21:50.079
together for the best part of a decade um so

00:21:50.079 –> 00:21:52.779
yeah that does that does genuinely create a challenge

00:21:52.779 –> 00:21:55.480
um and there there aren’t actually very many

00:21:55.480 –> 00:21:57.660
kind of design houses that that have both those

00:21:57.660 –> 00:21:59.700
skill sets kind of in -house and can enable that

00:21:59.700 –> 00:22:02.920
kind of product to be developed Are backpacks

00:22:02.920 –> 00:22:05.559
just a fashion item? Is it about the weight or

00:22:05.559 –> 00:22:07.940
is it really about the colour and the webbing

00:22:07.940 –> 00:22:10.900
and the cool straps? Yeah, it’s massively a fashion

00:22:10.900 –> 00:22:12.799
item. You just have to look at the big fashion

00:22:12.799 –> 00:22:14.960
brands. In fact, they’ve all got backpacks to

00:22:14.960 –> 00:22:17.640
know that that is clearly the case. And you look

00:22:17.640 –> 00:22:19.819
at the kind of price markup, if it’s got a particular

00:22:19.819 –> 00:22:22.819
brand on them, it is hugely a kind of fashion

00:22:22.819 –> 00:22:26.059
thing, really. I think, interestingly, the most

00:22:26.059 –> 00:22:29.380
niche ones, things like backpacks for photographers

00:22:29.380 –> 00:22:33.069
or whatever, Actually, it’s way more about the

00:22:33.069 –> 00:22:36.009
function. And that’s what we really love as designers,

00:22:36.029 –> 00:22:38.190
where the functionality comes first and then

00:22:38.190 –> 00:22:40.089
the form and everything else kind of follows

00:22:40.089 –> 00:22:43.190
on. But I wouldn’t want to guess at the percentage,

00:22:43.250 –> 00:22:45.529
but it’s probably something crazy, like 90, 95

00:22:45.529 –> 00:22:48.130
% of backpacks actually are bought on brand and

00:22:48.130 –> 00:22:50.349
look way more than they are actually on functionality.

00:22:50.869 –> 00:22:52.769
Maybe our guests that we’re going to bring in

00:22:52.769 –> 00:22:56.250
shortly can give us a view on that as well. Just

00:22:56.250 –> 00:22:58.309
in terms of, I was thinking about the camelback,

00:22:58.410 –> 00:23:01.019
basically, those kind of bladder. or Platypus,

00:23:01.119 –> 00:23:02.420
I think is another brand where you’ve got this

00:23:02.420 –> 00:23:05.140
kind of water bladders and then the tube so that

00:23:05.140 –> 00:23:08.140
you can actually drink while on the move. I love

00:23:08.140 –> 00:23:10.519
that. And they seem to be in every backpack now,

00:23:10.640 –> 00:23:12.200
even if you’ve got a laptop in there, which makes

00:23:12.200 –> 00:23:13.619
me slightly nervous. Do I want a camera back

00:23:13.619 –> 00:23:17.440
next to my laptop? But I don’t think you brought

00:23:17.440 –> 00:23:19.119
that into the story. I just wondered if it had

00:23:19.119 –> 00:23:21.059
come up as part of your kind of research when

00:23:21.059 –> 00:23:22.700
you were thinking about it. Yeah, I love the

00:23:22.700 –> 00:23:24.579
camera back. So for those who don’t know, this

00:23:24.579 –> 00:23:27.279
is a great example of like lead user design.

00:23:27.480 –> 00:23:30.460
So basically, Mark Eadson was… a medical student

00:23:30.460 –> 00:23:34.099
and he had a problem and he went and solved it

00:23:34.099 –> 00:23:37.980
really simply and he was a cyclist and the problem

00:23:37.980 –> 00:23:40.180
is when you’re cycling is you reach down to get

00:23:40.180 –> 00:23:42.180
your bike bottle and pull it up and have a drink

00:23:42.180 –> 00:23:44.920
and your bike wobbles all over the place believe

00:23:44.920 –> 00:23:46.700
me i’m a cyclist it goes everywhere and if you’re

00:23:46.700 –> 00:23:48.880
in a peloton like riding with our cyclists you

00:23:48.880 –> 00:23:51.200
crash into them so drinking became really dangerous

00:23:51.200 –> 00:23:53.920
so being a medical student he realized he had

00:23:53.920 –> 00:23:57.019
saline packs so little bags of of water i guess

00:23:57.019 –> 00:23:59.319
with a straw in the end and sewed that into a

00:23:59.319 –> 00:24:01.720
sock on the back of his backpack and it meant

00:24:01.720 –> 00:24:04.059
that as he was cycling along he could suck his

00:24:04.059 –> 00:24:06.920
straw out of his saline pack and from that we

00:24:06.920 –> 00:24:08.720
now have a massive company we have camelbacker

00:24:08.720 –> 00:24:10.319
into bottles and all sorts of other things as

00:24:10.319 –> 00:24:12.779
well but it’s a great piece of design innovation

00:24:12.779 –> 00:24:15.559
and i think it’s a really lovely example as well

00:24:15.559 –> 00:24:18.680
of of how function can kind of drive whole portfolio

00:24:18.680 –> 00:24:20.940
products whether you’re walkers or cyclists or

00:24:20.940 –> 00:24:23.599
you know you just want to kind of commute i guess

00:24:23.599 –> 00:24:26.059
with about within there but it also i think shows

00:24:26.059 –> 00:24:28.740
how simple these innovations can be. And in our

00:24:28.740 –> 00:24:31.019
story, you heard lots and lots of simple incremental

00:24:31.019 –> 00:24:33.779
innovations happen, which transformed that industry.

00:24:34.099 –> 00:24:36.559
So it’s a fab story. Love it. Yeah, and I think

00:24:36.559 –> 00:24:38.220
what I particularly love about that story is

00:24:38.220 –> 00:24:40.220
that he’s taken something from another industry

00:24:40.220 –> 00:24:42.759
and applied it in to the problem that he was

00:24:42.759 –> 00:24:45.740
having. And we see that a lot where kind of,

00:24:45.740 –> 00:24:47.339
I don’t know, a dentist might come to us and

00:24:47.339 –> 00:24:48.740
they’ve seen something in dentistry, but they

00:24:48.740 –> 00:24:50.579
think actually it can be applied really well

00:24:50.579 –> 00:24:53.599
to something else. And that triggers this kind

00:24:53.599 –> 00:24:56.500
of light bulb moment, I guess. So I love that.

00:24:56.519 –> 00:24:59.019
part of the story and and how how that came about

00:24:59.019 –> 00:25:05.740
so let’s talk more about the future of the backpack

00:25:05.740 –> 00:25:08.480
and i’d like to introduce you to sam wetton sam

00:25:08.480 –> 00:25:10.720
welcome to the show where are you calling from

00:25:10.720 –> 00:25:13.880
hi guys uh thanks for having me on uh i am currently

00:25:13.880 –> 00:25:17.380
based in bali indonesia just rub it in good weather

00:25:17.380 –> 00:25:21.900
just make us feel bad like it’s fine and you

00:25:21.900 –> 00:25:25.019
you you run stitch and you’re part of uh hang

00:25:25.019 –> 00:25:27.460
on let me get this right run and own riker both

00:25:27.460 –> 00:25:29.900
of them yeah that’s right there’s two businesses

00:25:29.900 –> 00:25:31.640
that basically operate under our umbrella so

00:25:31.640 –> 00:25:35.119
stitch um we have a small team which work on

00:25:35.119 –> 00:25:38.180
soft goods products so we work directly with

00:25:38.180 –> 00:25:41.539
manufacturers in asia and work with startups

00:25:41.539 –> 00:25:44.279
established brands things like that most recently

00:25:44.279 –> 00:25:47.740
developing the initial category for mouse uh

00:25:47.740 –> 00:25:50.240
you may have heard of the the phone case brand

00:25:50.240 –> 00:25:53.579
um beautiful so you’re kind of setting up the

00:25:54.140 –> 00:25:55.599
building out their supply chain, training their

00:25:55.599 –> 00:25:59.900
initial team and defining design language, even

00:25:59.900 –> 00:26:01.980
things like working out the logistics and initial

00:26:01.980 –> 00:26:04.900
marketing. It’s very different from a hard goods

00:26:04.900 –> 00:26:07.539
product into a brand new category. It’s almost

00:26:07.539 –> 00:26:10.220
like developing a mini business within a business,

00:26:10.279 –> 00:26:12.799
but that’s gone on to be a great success, something

00:26:12.799 –> 00:26:15.059
I’m really proud of. What’s the product that

00:26:15.059 –> 00:26:16.920
you’re most proud of? The one that’s kind of

00:26:16.920 –> 00:26:18.420
either had the most innovation, whether it was

00:26:18.420 –> 00:26:20.519
successful or not, but the one that you love?

00:26:20.759 –> 00:26:24.700
So kind of how I ended up in this place is I

00:26:24.700 –> 00:26:27.640
initially and it’s actually how I met Phil many,

00:26:27.720 –> 00:26:30.539
many years ago. What was a university project?

00:26:30.599 –> 00:26:33.359
And at the time was when ocean waste plastics

00:26:33.359 –> 00:26:36.140
was very in its infancy and super expensive to

00:26:36.140 –> 00:26:38.500
do. And I actually worked direct with a supplier

00:26:38.500 –> 00:26:40.299
at the time that kind of sponsored a university

00:26:40.299 –> 00:26:44.630
project. yeah i handmade many many samples working

00:26:44.630 –> 00:26:47.630
alongside my mum she was a seamstress pattern

00:26:47.630 –> 00:26:49.789
cutter kind of did everything around that side

00:26:49.789 –> 00:26:52.990
of things i was just really interested in sewing

00:26:52.990 –> 00:26:55.269
taking sewing machines to bits and stuff like

00:26:55.269 –> 00:26:57.630
that and that’s kind of how i ventured into this

00:26:57.630 –> 00:27:00.670
and yeah i then went on to build that into a

00:27:00.670 –> 00:27:06.200
real business and kind of battling COVID, all

00:27:06.200 –> 00:27:08.019
of the different things that you go through in

00:27:08.019 –> 00:27:10.660
starting a business in itself. But that first

00:27:10.660 –> 00:27:13.660
product was the travel pack that we launched

00:27:13.660 –> 00:27:17.160
for Ica. And that was made from ocean waste plastics.

00:27:17.440 –> 00:27:22.859
And it was a passion in itself, but it taught

00:27:22.859 –> 00:27:25.299
me so much in the sense of we created a fantastic

00:27:25.299 –> 00:27:28.240
product that was super over -engineered, but

00:27:28.240 –> 00:27:30.730
not over -engineered in the sense of… you know,

00:27:30.750 –> 00:27:33.589
solar panels and things like that. But over -engineered

00:27:33.589 –> 00:27:36.329
in the, we use the best hardware, the best fabrics.

00:27:36.670 –> 00:27:38.890
You know, there were so many features and details

00:27:38.890 –> 00:27:40.890
and things like that because back then the market

00:27:40.890 –> 00:27:44.009
was different and you were selling on kind of

00:27:44.009 –> 00:27:46.390
volume of features and things like that because

00:27:46.390 –> 00:27:49.690
it was launched on Kickstarter, whereas everything’s

00:27:49.690 –> 00:27:52.309
kind of shifted now. Yeah, it was an amazing

00:27:52.309 –> 00:27:54.130
product that I’m really proud of, but commercially

00:27:54.130 –> 00:27:59.230
it just did not work. oh such a shame and again

00:27:59.230 –> 00:28:01.309
that’s something we see a lot is that even though

00:28:01.309 –> 00:28:03.410
the product is fantastic and the design’s been

00:28:03.410 –> 00:28:06.670
done so well commercially it just doesn’t work

00:28:06.670 –> 00:28:08.970
if you’re prepared to dig into that a little

00:28:08.970 –> 00:28:10.869
bit and tell us why commercially it didn’t work

00:28:10.869 –> 00:28:14.470
that would be fantastic yeah so it’s something

00:28:14.470 –> 00:28:18.269
that when we work with clients now it’s something

00:28:18.269 –> 00:28:20.289
that we make them really aware of in terms of

00:28:20.289 –> 00:28:22.690
setting expectations and something that we’re

00:28:22.690 –> 00:28:26.190
really good at is working funnily enough super

00:28:26.190 –> 00:28:29.089
commercially because we’ve been burned and made

00:28:29.089 –> 00:28:32.650
those mistakes we’re now so far in the detail

00:28:32.650 –> 00:28:35.829
of knowing exactly how factories will will actually

00:28:35.829 –> 00:28:38.190
issue quotes so we can kind of predict what that

00:28:38.190 –> 00:28:39.890
costing is going to come out before we go through

00:28:39.890 –> 00:28:42.789
quote requests and things like that rfqs and

00:28:42.789 –> 00:28:45.049
yeah so did your product just end up too expensive

00:28:45.049 –> 00:28:48.869
is that the problem yeah it was it was two things

00:28:48.869 –> 00:28:51.650
so it was over engineered from a feature perspective

00:28:51.650 –> 00:28:55.400
and then kind of covid happened so what what

00:28:55.400 –> 00:28:57.339
what really happened with that was that we we

00:28:57.339 –> 00:28:59.819
launched the product um we did a kickstarter

00:28:59.819 –> 00:29:05.039
and we raised 20k in 24 hours and it was like

00:29:05.039 –> 00:29:06.960
oh everything looks amazing from the outside

00:29:06.960 –> 00:29:08.920
and that was all organic as well at that point

00:29:08.920 –> 00:29:12.259
um everything was amazing from the outside and

00:29:12.259 –> 00:29:16.359
yeah people you know singing your praises and

00:29:16.359 –> 00:29:19.799
all of that but actually What really was going

00:29:19.799 –> 00:29:22.779
on kind of behind the scenes was that I was in

00:29:22.779 –> 00:29:27.740
a real dilemma of shit, what do I do now? Because

00:29:27.740 –> 00:29:30.420
the factory, when it came to kind of notifying

00:29:30.420 –> 00:29:32.839
them that we were going ahead with the order,

00:29:33.099 –> 00:29:34.980
they then turned around and was like, well, we’re

00:29:34.980 –> 00:29:36.759
operating at such a low capacity. We’re having

00:29:36.759 –> 00:29:41.279
to focus on our larger customers. And as a result,

00:29:41.339 –> 00:29:45.259
they doubled MOQs and unit costs went up 50 %

00:29:45.259 –> 00:29:49.079
and we had six SKUs. um and across the board

00:29:49.079 –> 00:29:51.740
so we’re talking a thousand pieces per skew i

00:29:51.740 –> 00:29:55.740
needed to find like 120k at that point and it

00:29:55.740 –> 00:29:59.220
was a nightmare situation and i mean going like

00:29:59.220 –> 00:30:02.039
any startup you go through so many kind of trials

00:30:02.039 –> 00:30:05.539
and tribulations yeah that was a A real tough

00:30:05.539 –> 00:30:08.759
one. So guys, an MOQ is a minimum order quantity.

00:30:08.880 –> 00:30:11.140
That’s the minimum number of products you can

00:30:11.140 –> 00:30:13.359
order from a factory. It might be 3 ,000 or something

00:30:13.359 –> 00:30:17.660
like that. And then a SKU or SKU is like an individual

00:30:17.660 –> 00:30:19.980
item. It might be one colour or a different size.

00:30:20.440 –> 00:30:23.480
I have to say, Sam, I absolutely adore my mouse

00:30:23.480 –> 00:30:26.299
backpack. I believe that you designed this. Is

00:30:26.299 –> 00:30:30.349
that right? That’s right. yeah it is incredible

00:30:30.349 –> 00:30:33.650
i spent six months researching my next backpack

00:30:33.650 –> 00:30:35.630
for work because obviously i use it every day

00:30:35.630 –> 00:30:38.910
i commute cycle with it it’s got to look good

00:30:38.910 –> 00:30:40.630
for client meetings and all this kind of stuff

00:30:40.630 –> 00:30:43.430
so i spent a long time and this is the backpack

00:30:43.430 –> 00:30:46.670
for commuting cycling there are so many different

00:30:46.670 –> 00:30:49.769
products that suit so many different needs and

00:30:49.769 –> 00:30:51.529
at different price points and things like that

00:30:51.529 –> 00:30:53.190
and we’re a completely different offering even

00:30:53.190 –> 00:30:56.599
though We designed those bags and they’re super

00:30:56.599 –> 00:30:59.980
over -engineered and a fantastic product. But

00:30:59.980 –> 00:31:02.599
it’s, yeah, I think there’s a place for everyone

00:31:02.599 –> 00:31:05.259
in this market. Sam, we heard in our story about

00:31:05.259 –> 00:31:07.420
Dick and Nina being inspired by their friend

00:31:07.420 –> 00:31:09.660
sticking some sticks in underneath their backpack

00:31:09.660 –> 00:31:12.599
to kind of hold it up and that inspired them

00:31:12.599 –> 00:31:15.539
to kind of do the hip belt. What inspires you

00:31:15.539 –> 00:31:17.259
when you’re developing a backpack? Where do you

00:31:17.259 –> 00:31:20.079
get your ideas from? And what do you hold up

00:31:20.079 –> 00:31:22.680
as being the kind of the Mona Lisa backpacks

00:31:22.680 –> 00:31:24.819
out there? Yeah, so I think for us, it’s mainly

00:31:24.819 –> 00:31:28.339
from frustrations. So whether that’s observing

00:31:28.339 –> 00:31:31.880
different niches, things like that, and looking

00:31:31.880 –> 00:31:36.140
for opportunity. But in terms of actually like

00:31:36.140 –> 00:31:39.200
a specific kind of hero product, I think the

00:31:39.200 –> 00:31:41.319
majority of inspiration comes from other product

00:31:41.319 –> 00:31:44.910
categories. performance wear footwear things

00:31:44.910 –> 00:31:46.710
like that and looking where there’s opportunity

00:31:46.710 –> 00:31:49.609
to kind of bring in some of those details and

00:31:49.609 –> 00:31:53.049
intricacies um even also hard goods so different

00:31:53.049 –> 00:31:56.329
textures and things like that whereas actually

00:31:56.329 –> 00:31:58.950
within the category itself i definitely couldn’t

00:31:58.950 –> 00:32:00.769
there is no such thing as a perfect backpack

00:32:00.769 –> 00:32:03.890
it’s like a weird niche basically on youtube

00:32:03.890 –> 00:32:06.670
that’s different like reviewers that review all

00:32:06.670 –> 00:32:08.509
the backpacks in the world basically and everyone

00:32:08.509 –> 00:32:10.049
will say there is there is no such thing as a

00:32:10.049 –> 00:32:13.259
perfect one and that’s why It is a category that

00:32:13.259 –> 00:32:16.900
keeps on releasing new products. And every brand

00:32:16.900 –> 00:32:19.799
kind of has that family of products. Because

00:32:19.799 –> 00:32:23.039
I definitely don’t have a favorite bag. And I

00:32:23.039 –> 00:32:25.480
couldn’t design the perfect bag. Like even the

00:32:25.480 –> 00:32:28.400
mouse bag that Phil held up, you know, that was

00:32:28.400 –> 00:32:30.579
something that was like, you know, blood, sweat

00:32:30.579 –> 00:32:32.880
and tears went into that in a really short timeline.

00:32:33.539 –> 00:32:36.319
And it’s still not perfect in my eyes. There’s

00:32:36.319 –> 00:32:37.720
still things that we wish we could have done.

00:32:38.619 –> 00:32:40.640
you know, you get to a point with a product where,

00:32:40.720 –> 00:32:42.880
what’s the saying? Like good is better than perfect.

00:32:43.240 –> 00:32:45.759
And, you know, you can’t meet all the commercial

00:32:45.759 –> 00:32:48.640
goals and have all of the features. And that’s

00:32:48.640 –> 00:32:50.480
very close to it because we were supposed to

00:32:50.480 –> 00:32:52.559
do a cost down exercise on that and it didn’t

00:32:52.559 –> 00:32:54.980
happen. So there’s way more features maybe than

00:32:54.980 –> 00:33:00.240
it should have. I’ve got a good deal then. That’s

00:33:00.240 –> 00:33:03.819
probably why I love it. But I think that’s a

00:33:03.819 –> 00:33:06.200
lovely answer. There’s no such thing as the perfect

00:33:06.200 –> 00:33:08.799
backpack. And I think, if anything, this story

00:33:08.799 –> 00:33:11.539
has shown us that they are very, very specialist.

00:33:11.900 –> 00:33:13.819
And they were very specialist so they didn’t

00:33:13.819 –> 00:33:15.900
cross into the mainstream. And now they’re very

00:33:15.900 –> 00:33:17.920
specialist in each of the different activities

00:33:17.920 –> 00:33:20.539
that those rucksacks are for. Plus, they’ve got

00:33:20.539 –> 00:33:23.490
to look beautiful. So where do you feel then

00:33:23.490 –> 00:33:26.809
the future of backpacking is? Is it this more

00:33:26.809 –> 00:33:30.809
diverse range of functionally specific or fashion

00:33:30.809 –> 00:33:33.789
specific products? Or is it the sustainability

00:33:33.789 –> 00:33:36.690
angle? Or are there some challenges like the

00:33:36.690 –> 00:33:38.869
war in Ukraine or the trade tariffs that are

00:33:38.869 –> 00:33:40.650
going to have a big impact on backpack design

00:33:40.650 –> 00:33:44.849
now? What’s next for the backpack? It’s generally

00:33:44.849 –> 00:33:47.029
probably going to look like from a material standpoint,

00:33:47.049 –> 00:33:49.339
it’s going to be… like getting into the detail

00:33:49.339 –> 00:33:52.220
of innovation the the lightweight side of things

00:33:52.220 –> 00:33:55.000
durability and but that’s still really niche

00:33:55.000 –> 00:33:57.440
because there’s things like x -pack and dyneema

00:33:57.440 –> 00:34:01.099
which are really lightweight super durable materials

00:34:01.099 –> 00:34:04.819
that come from sailcloth but again the price

00:34:04.819 –> 00:34:07.400
point is so inaccessible for mass market that

00:34:07.400 –> 00:34:10.000
i don’t know how far that can go um unless kind

00:34:10.000 –> 00:34:12.969
of an innovation there could maybe be that the

00:34:12.969 –> 00:34:14.670
commercial side of things starts to make more

00:34:14.670 –> 00:34:16.829
sense for products like that. And we start to

00:34:16.829 –> 00:34:20.230
see more longevity, people spending more money

00:34:20.230 –> 00:34:24.110
on product that lasts longer. I think that is

00:34:24.110 –> 00:34:27.449
a thing in itself and marketing and brand and

00:34:27.449 –> 00:34:29.869
things like that are really the drivers behind

00:34:29.869 –> 00:34:32.710
these products. And if you kind of don’t have

00:34:32.710 –> 00:34:35.630
that to drive everything forward, it’s really

00:34:35.630 –> 00:34:38.769
tricky to succeed. Do you have super premium?

00:34:39.030 –> 00:34:40.670
Since we were talking in some of our other podcasts

00:34:40.670 –> 00:34:44.050
that the prices were quite low and then suddenly

00:34:44.050 –> 00:34:47.090
a Bugaboo -like brand or a super Dyson -like

00:34:47.090 –> 00:34:49.190
brand comes in and elevates the price point to

00:34:49.190 –> 00:34:51.460
that category. Do you have that already in backpacks?

00:34:51.460 –> 00:34:55.239
Are there, you know, thousand pound deluxe backpacks

00:34:55.239 –> 00:34:57.440
already out there with these kind of uber materials

00:34:57.440 –> 00:35:01.219
in? Yeah, so generally those brands are super

00:35:01.219 –> 00:35:04.039
niche, but actually can still be really successful.

00:35:04.980 –> 00:35:07.360
So going back to the like reviewer side of things,

00:35:07.460 –> 00:35:09.000
there are a bunch of different brands out there

00:35:09.000 –> 00:35:11.940
that have massive success because there is like

00:35:11.940 –> 00:35:13.820
a cult following. It’s almost like sneaker heads,

00:35:13.980 –> 00:35:19.019
basically. which is a good analogy. You know,

00:35:19.039 –> 00:35:20.679
we talked about fashion fabrics and then you

00:35:20.679 –> 00:35:22.699
get these sneaker kind of, you know, beautiful

00:35:22.699 –> 00:35:26.300
thousand pound museum pieces. And I think that

00:35:26.300 –> 00:35:28.199
jump’s already happened in backpacks. You know,

00:35:28.239 –> 00:35:30.539
when I bought this latest one, I was slightly

00:35:30.539 –> 00:35:33.820
shocked. It was 250 quid, something like that.

00:35:33.920 –> 00:35:36.440
Whereas the backpack that I bought for work maybe

00:35:36.440 –> 00:35:39.300
five, six years ago that broke and therefore

00:35:39.300 –> 00:35:41.880
I needed this one. I think I spent a maximum

00:35:41.880 –> 00:35:44.119
of like 80 quid on it. So I think there’s been

00:35:44.119 –> 00:35:47.599
a huge hike in prices already in the backpack

00:35:47.599 –> 00:35:50.000
space. I don’t know if you think that’s the case.

00:35:50.000 –> 00:35:53.980
Yeah, I think so. But again, I think it’s a multitude

00:35:53.980 –> 00:35:57.099
of factors you factor in. Kind of the point that

00:35:57.099 –> 00:35:59.320
Ben was raising regarding tariffs and the war

00:35:59.320 –> 00:36:01.400
and everything else. Yeah, you know, we’ve kind

00:36:01.400 –> 00:36:04.460
of been hit by the last kind of five -year period.

00:36:04.519 –> 00:36:08.099
It’s just been hell for… supply chain, logistics,

00:36:08.300 –> 00:36:12.880
and also marketing. So we also work with clients

00:36:12.880 –> 00:36:15.059
on the marketing side of things as well. And

00:36:15.059 –> 00:36:18.280
that skill set came from building brands. And

00:36:18.280 –> 00:36:20.659
marketing’s got way more expensive and harder

00:36:20.659 –> 00:36:23.940
to do. So if you are going to market, you need

00:36:23.940 –> 00:36:27.360
way more margin than you did before just to account

00:36:27.360 –> 00:36:29.619
for that. Therefore, your product price has got

00:36:29.619 –> 00:36:32.199
to go up. All of your factories have increased

00:36:32.199 –> 00:36:35.429
prices since COVID. And then also influence from,

00:36:35.469 –> 00:36:38.050
you know, things like the trade war, the actual

00:36:38.050 –> 00:36:41.130
war. All of these things have had such a knock

00:36:41.130 –> 00:36:43.050
on. We also remember before when we saw such

00:36:43.050 –> 00:36:45.250
high shipping prices, if you were shipping like

00:36:45.250 –> 00:36:47.150
travel backpacks and stuff that you were shipping

00:36:47.150 –> 00:36:50.110
a lot of air, it was costing a fortune. And,

00:36:50.150 –> 00:36:52.849
you know, that that was a big driver. And I think

00:36:52.849 –> 00:36:55.750
we’re probably going to see more of that. I think

00:36:55.750 –> 00:36:57.909
brands are kind of trying to swallow that at

00:36:57.909 –> 00:37:00.550
the minute. But ultimately, we’re going to probably

00:37:00.550 –> 00:37:02.610
see a kind of 20 percent hike from where we’re

00:37:02.610 –> 00:37:06.309
at the minute. So on that pessimistic note, that’s

00:37:06.309 –> 00:37:09.269
not true. But I think we can all say the future

00:37:09.269 –> 00:37:11.789
is great for backpacks. This specialisation means

00:37:11.789 –> 00:37:13.530
we’re going to need more different designs for

00:37:13.530 –> 00:37:16.329
different tasks. And I guess, anything to add,

00:37:16.389 –> 00:37:17.789
gentlemen, to that? No, I think you’re right,

00:37:17.869 –> 00:37:20.610
Ben, absolutely. I think clearly there’s way

00:37:20.610 –> 00:37:23.469
more space for way more backpacks to be designed.

00:37:23.630 –> 00:37:25.730
It’s going to keep evolving and keep changing.

00:37:26.349 –> 00:37:28.710
And my hope is that, Sam, you’re right, and that

00:37:28.710 –> 00:37:30.449
actually they do get more sustainable. There’s

00:37:30.449 –> 00:37:33.079
more innovation in terms of materials. materials

00:37:33.079 –> 00:37:35.860
we all want to use come down in price so that

00:37:35.860 –> 00:37:38.000
actually you know eventually hopefully almost

00:37:38.000 –> 00:37:40.079
any backpack you have out there has an element

00:37:40.079 –> 00:37:43.000
of sustainability in it let’s let’s hope so a

00:37:43.000 –> 00:37:45.300
massive thanks to our guests sam wetton from

00:37:45.300 –> 00:37:48.119
stitch and riker and of course to phil staunton

00:37:48.119 –> 00:37:51.599
our design expert from d2m i hope you’ve loved

00:37:51.599 –> 00:37:54.619
why the backpack please like subscribe leave

00:37:54.619 –> 00:37:57.039
us with you tell your friends carry us everywhere

00:37:57.039 –> 00:38:00.380
and join us on the next episode of why the fork